Celebrating Brexit.

[Eagle]

Yes Syd

You correctly point out that we have not made a single step to leaving , thank goodness. Whilst no action always a chance common sense will prevail.

I seem to recall DC promising that in the event of a negative result he would immediately activate UK's exit .

Fortunately he has had second thoughts.

I think it will end up us having free movement and other things stipulated by the Free Market , but have NO say in how the free market is run.
This would be a disaster for UK.

[mosy]

Yes Syd
[clip]...
I seem to recall DC promising that in the event of a negative result he would immediately activate UK's exit .

Fortunately he has had second thoughts.
...[clip...]

Yes, DC did say Article 50 would be activated immediately.

You and others might want to watch Philip Hammond telling the Foreign Affairs Committee this morning that the reason the government and Civil Service made no preparations for a possible Brexit beforehand (aside from Treasury and Bank of England who knew that markets would be immediately hit) was because there was no need to rush as current potential PM contenders have put the activation back, so plenty of time to worry afterwards if Brexit was the result. Clearly that's nonsense in the context of DC saying activation immediately.

P Hammond's other answers, some clearly considered astonishing by the Committee, about lack of prior contingency planning plus the even more astonishing current lack of future plans has to be seen to be believed - I urge all interested to watch.
See Foreign Affairs Committee start time 10.45am: http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/11 ... 2df14f40e1

Nigel (our Nigel) mentioned apathy of our government and parliament. I agree totally having earlier said somewhere that being under the control of the EU has promoted laziness - a "Why bother?" attitude since they'll tell us what to do anyway. That is clearly borne out IMO by how ill-equipped the Civil Service has become, as evidenced by PH's answers to the Committee.

[_HB]

mosy - Interesting post. In what sense would you say the Civil Service has become "ill equipped"?

[mosy]

It's not what I'd say _HB, it's what Philip Hammond said. That the Civil Service didn't have enough expertise even to start negotiations with the EU let alone with other countries globally and that they (Foreign Office) were on a restricted budget so would have to hire in expensive outside help in the short term - but only a small amount as he didn't think the Foreign office would be allocated much more money given the UK's current budget/finances.

In my view, it's one thing for PH to admit we don't have the skills in government/Civil Service, it's quite another to suggest that he seemed to be satisfied with a projection of a damp rag being the best we've got so get used it. [Edit: My paraphrasing is not really fair, as what he said was he'd be happy to bid for more money but didn't think there was enough in the pot to get any. Same difference in effect.]

One thing I find that consistently is now running through speeches is "Nowt to do with me Guv, it's the new PM's problem". I guess we'll see that at least until September.

[_HB]

Seems a bit harsh to blame the civil service/Foreign Office for not planning and not having enough trade negotiators. The Civil Service acts on the instructions of Ministers. The Foreign Office budget is dictated by Ministers. There is a lot of slopey-shoulderitis in the political class at the moment...

[mosy]

Quite so. Surely my point? I.e. That departments have increasingly become required over the years only to fulfil an increasingly administrative role to implement the directives or will of the EU. It's not their fault that our government is happy with that. Seems like 17 million people are less happy with that ongoing expectation.

[_HB]

I think you've got the correct culprits (i.e the politicians in charge), but the wrong diagnosis.

For example

That departments have increasingly become required over the years only to fulfil an increasingly administrative role to implement the directives or will of the EU.

Is just simply not true and betrays a basic failure to understand how the EU institutions interact with UK Government departments. Of course, you are not alone in this ignorance. If the polls are to believed, at least 52% of the population are similarly well informed.

[mosy]

Why isn't it true, or why do you think it is not true?

Besides which, the issue now is not how UK Government departments interacted with the EU in the past, it is their capability to interact with the EU and globally from now on that's under the microscope.

[_HB]

Why isn't it true, or why do you think it is not true?

Because I have first hand experience of these interactions. In my experience, at the level of 28 (Member States), the UK drives the development of laws and directives in almost every area of EU business. Overwhelmingly, if what is being proposed is not in the UK national interest, it does not happen. It is completely false to suggest, as you do, that the UK Government is some sort of passive clearing house for EU regulations. And we have now voted to discard our immense influence over the second largest economic bloc in the world. Fair enough, the people have spoken. I'm sure Andrea Leadsom will sort it all out.

Besides which, the issue now is not how UK Government departments interacted with the EU in the past, it is their capability to interact with the EU and globally from now on that's under the microscope.

Yes that's right. Which makes it all the more odd that those who led the Leave campaign didn't have a plan and don't want anything to do with the mess they created.

[Eagle]

Well said HB .
You seem to be someone with knowledge on this subject .

For ages the media and other strange people have persuaded many of us that the UK has NO input on EU matters.

Good to have confirmation that this is not true.

How can we get out of this debacle. The slight light at the end of the tunnel is that nothing actually be done yet,

[_HB]

Thanks, Eagle.

I think one of the things that is interesting about your take on this is that you have for a long time been a champion of the kind of lazy anti-immigrant rhetoric and post factual debate that contributed so greatly to this result. And now you are keen to position yourself as staunchly pro-EU. It's a difficult circle to square to be honest.

[mosy]

_HB: On your first point, statistics beg to differ. Either way, outside the EU, the UK can decide for itself what is in its best interest, so without having to spend numerous hours to persuade 27 other countries that it's also in their best interests too. Even if you are right, it is a non-point now that a different future is ahead..

On your second point, Andrea Leadsom is now one of the final two on the Tory leadership ballot paper. No Brexiter could have a definite plan beforehand since eventual actions are decided by government and they were denied access to government's projections, but Andrea at least knows what she's aiming for. Theresa May certainly didn't have a Brexit plan, deliberately keeping silent on the Remain side, and still doesn't seem to have one with any conviction for Brexit so the chances of uniting the country are slim if she's seeking a compromise deal with the EU and has little vision or experience of how to further the UK in an international role.

I guess not much publicly will happen now until 9 Sept. Apparently the EU parliament will be on summer break too.

As you say you have first hand experience of EU/UK interactions, do you think they'll all get their skates on or hibernate for the summer, polishing slippery shoulders whilst the undesirable uncertainty limbo continues?

[Sydenham Syd]

_HB: On your first point, statistics beg to differ. Either way, outside the EU, the UK can decide for itself what is in its best interest, so without having to spend numerous hours to persuade 27 other countries that it's also in their best interests too. Even if you are right, it is a non-point now that a different future is ahead..

On your second point, Andrea Leadsom is now one of the final two on the Tory leadership ballot paper. No Brexiter could have a definite plan beforehand since eventual actions are decided by government and they were denied access to government's projections, but Andrea at least knows what she's aiming for. Theresa May certainly didn't have a Brexit plan, deliberately keeping silent on the Remain side, and still doesn't seem to have one with any conviction for Brexit so the chances of uniting the country are slim if she's seeking a compromise deal with the EU and has little vision or experience of how to further the UK in an international role.

I guess not much publicly will happen now until 9 Sept. Apparently the EU parliament will be on summer break too.

As you say you have first hand experience of EU/UK interactions, do you think they'll all get their skates on or hibernate for the summer, polishing slippery shoulders whilst the undesirable uncertainty limbo continues?

"Andrea knows what she's aiming for"
Ha Ha, stay off the crack pipe. She can't even knock up a CV without blagging it.

Surely the real reason why there is no plan from anyone is because those that have to enforce A50 hadnt got the will or desire to actually envoke the thing. The ones that sold the country down the river have all vanished.

Total shambles.

[Eagle]

I am sure I saw that the arch Brexit Ms Leeson said only three years ago it would be a disaster to leave the EU !!

Might as well have Dame Edna in charge .

HB
True for some time I have tacked illegal immigration. By its very nature does NOT include people from our EU colleagues.

None of the illegals are from the EU .

Hope this clarifies the matter.

Keep up the good fight it is not over until the fat lady sings.

I am still puzzled why MP's of all sides do not get together and force a second election. We are told in built majority in Parliament for sanity.

[maestro]

Surely the real reason why there is no plan from anyone is because those that have to enforce A50 hadnt got the will or desire to actually evoke the thing. The ones that sold the country down the river have all vanished.

Total shambles.

Indeed, and, even more cause to celebrate (that is the thread title after all) . We were threatened with everything bar torching us out of our hovels if we dared have the temerity to vote 'out'. Our establishment obviously considered we'd been intimidated and bullied just sufficiently to guarantee a 'remain' vote. Well, what a tumultuous and well deserved kick in the knackers for them all. Furthermore, what a sad but absolutely true indictment that this farcical European experiment/dream, in the eyes of the majority of the British people, was, in any event, ultimately doomed to become a total failure, and undoubtedly should never have been entered into in the first place, which we wouldn't back in 1975 had eligible voters (not me, too young!) been told the truth about what we were actually entering into, rather than just a simple "Common Market/EEC Trading Agreement".

The promised "Armageddon" hasn't happened after two weeks now, so all the doom mongers can surely go and wash their soiled bedsheets now. and, like the rest of us, celebrate a magnificent new dawn in British History (hic ).

[Sydenham Syd]

Surely the real reason why there is no plan from anyone is because those that have to enforce A50 hadnt got the will or desire to actually evoke the thing. The ones that sold the country down the river have all vanished.

Total shambles.

Indeed, and, even more cause to celebrate (that is the thread title after all) . We were threatened with everything bar torching us out of our hovels if we dared have the temerity to vote 'out'. Our establishment obviously considered we'd been intimidated and bullied just sufficiently to guarantee a 'remain' vote. Well, what a tumultuous and well deserved kick in the knackers for them all. Furthermore, what a sad but absolutely true indictment that this farcical European experiment/dream, in the eyes of the majority of the British people, was, in any event, ultimately doomed to become a total failure, and undoubtedly should never have been entered into in the first place, which we wouldn't back in 1975 had eligible voters (not me, too young!) been told the truth about what we were actually entering into, rather than just a simple "Common Market/EEC Trading Agreement".

The promised "Armageddon" hasn't happened after two weeks now, so all the doom mongers can surely go and wash their soiled bedsheets now. and, like the rest of us, celebrate a magnificent new dawn in British History (hic ).

But the kick in the knackers has also had zero effect, other than to wipe quite a lot of cash off the national balance sheet. All that has happened is that we revert back to another establishment politician running the country.

Complete waste of time.

I think the majority of the short term prophecies have come true. The long term ones are yet to shake down, because, nothing has actually changed yet other than the guard at number ten.

Boris is already dealing with his publisher to see if he can get a book on the shelves for Christmas....the ego diaries or something equally apt.

Total b@llocks the lot of it.

[_HB]

On your first point, statistics beg to differ.

What statistics?

Either way, outside the EU, the UK can decide for itself what is in its best interest, so without having to spend numerous hours to persuade 27 other countries that it's also in their best interests too.

Again, I just don't think you understand how these things work. It is one of the many failings of EU leaders that they have utterly failed to explain themselves clearly. And no-one has successfully challenged the relentless anti-EU rhetoric.

Outside the EU, the UK loses all serious influence. We are still affected by how it works, but we have no say in it. That is not something that we should have given up so lightly.

[maestro]

But the kick in the knackers has also had zero effect,

Really? But our Prime Minister immediately resigned (even though he had no need to) didn't he? Haven't the "opposition" ( ) also just fallen to pieces due to this? Farage resigned too (for the moment, if only to spend more time with his ego). Bonkers Boris, desperate to become PM but was then knifed by Gove, now both are history. If that's all "zero effect" you need to change your news channel!

[Sydenham Syd]

But the kick in the knackers has also had zero effect,

Really? But our Prime Minister immediately resigned (even though he had no need to) didn't he? Haven't the "opposition" ( ) also just fallen to pieces due to this? Farage resigned too (for the moment, if only to spend more time with his ego). Bonkers Boris, desperate to become PM but was then knifed by Gove, now both are history. If that's all "zero effect" you need to change your news channel!

I think we're at cross purposes. My point being that the life of the 52% hasn't and any change looks a long way off. It was ultimately a swap for DC to May. Establishment to establishment. The fiasco in the middle was fun to watch admittedly and Boris' book will sell plenty, but nothing really changes.

[maestro]

I think we're at cross purposes. My point being that the life of the 52% hasn't and any change looks a long way off. It was ultimately a swap for DC to May. Establishment to establishment. The fiasco in the middle was fun to watch admittedly and Boris' book will sell plenty, but nothing really changes.

As an 'out' voter, I didn't expect any noticeable changes in my life after only two weeks, nor probably even after two years. But our political landscape is already rapidly beginning to change forever. How long do you think May, a 'remainer' about to become responsible for handling our exit from this European debacle is likely to last? As for Boris's book, it'll be in those supermarket wire bins at clearance prices by Easter next year (along with Cameron's, Farage's, Corbyn's, and perhaps even May's) even following his future appearances back on HIGNFY.