The Windmill has closed down

[coldand]

Why is the windmill considered such a community building . Previously the site wasn't used for a pub and if you frequent many of the nearby pubs it can be seen why pubs are closing .People just don't use pubs in the same way as they did in the past.
Although not personally a great fan of the likes of pizza express , it may however attract a better customer ( very family friendly ) and further investment from business ventures . A sign of an up and coming area is when high street chains are investing in the area, many people scorn at costa and starbucks but theres no doubt thats where it starts. A pub isn't necessarily vital to the community especially as they aren't really designed for children.
Kirkdale no doubt could be great .It has all the ingredients , little french bakery , the well established piano shop and the fancy dress shop however it just needs that big outsider to give others confidence .

[JMLF]

I know a pizza express like establishment has been bandied about, which I have no issue with and am very much of the opinion if it's not empty and is something the community can use (by that I mean something a decent number of locals will use and offers something different then what exists) and isn't aesthetically dreadful then great. My concern would be something that may hurt businesses that are already here and provide a similar service - for example we have a great Italian in Kirkdale. If an Italian chain was to open how would it be affected? The windmill I'm assuming closed down as it was not profitable, partly due to other nearby pubs providing similar service. If a similar pub (rather then a gastropub or specialist ale/wine place or what have you) opened it would perhaps likely suffer a similar fate or foxes would? That was my main issue with it becoming a sainsbury's - no need for it in a high street which has 3xsmall supermarkets and 2x newsagents.
I just hope it gets filled soon with something the high street / community needs or wants and does not negatively impact upon existing businesses.

[leenewham]

I disagree about chains being a sign that a high street is up and coming. I think they are a sign that it has already changed.

The real signs of areas that are changing are the businesses looking proud of themselves and greatly increased footfall as a result. Before that there will probably be lots of empty shops which helps stabilise or sometimes even drive down rent. Most high streets that changed did so because of independent businesses and offering something different. These are businesses that take a chance, businesses that do something they believe in and businesses that are run by people who are passionate about what they do.

Sydenham Road has lots and lots of brands in it already from Superdrug to Boots, to the Co-op to Tesco, from Natwest to Morleys Chicken, from Lidl to Ladbrokes. There are loads of them, but none are particularly exciting. We had lots of independent business in Sydenham too, but not many that were peoples passion.

Give me any of the good independent cafes or businesses in Sydenham, Forest Hill or elsewhere anyway over something that is the same everywhere. I'm not anti-chain, some are good and aren't identikit bland copycats that enhance the areas they frequent. But our high streets have got to offer something unique to survive.

Hopefully the Windmill can provide that.

[JMLF]

Precisely my point Lee but said in a far better way!

I'm not sure if it's cos I'm so close or still in the honeymoon period here but really do feel kirkdale has a really good mix of functional and quirky shops and has so much promise to build upon what is already here and fingers crossed appears to be doing so - French deli @ fig and pistachio, coffee shop/wine/craft beer @ 161, perhaps a new more utilised shop where fancy dress shop has just vacated and the promise of the windmill perhaps..

[JRobinson]

JMLF - we don't 'know' that the pub closed because it wasn't profitable. That's only what the owner of the building is saying. Clearly he would get less hassle, and more rent if the property was leased by Sainsbury, than by the previous pub - if we believe Mary she says that the landlord was making enough money, but when he approached the owner to get works done, they didn't - so the kitchen wasn't useable in the way they wanted, and there were other issues. I suspect that these issues would have been fairly easy to sort out, but would have cost the owner money, for no increased rent.
A long term lease from a major chain, allowing them to do all the works themselves, is far better for the owner than short repeating lease from an independent who constantly wants works done.

[vizzle]

There seems to be a big difference in how people feel if they've just moved here.

Obviously, people are moving into Sydenham because they like it. Others seem proud to say it'll 'never be gentrified'. The houses are expensive now, so maybe some people are looking towards gentrification, whatever your definition of that is.

I would rather have a chain breathing life into a shopping parade than see buildings left empty as I think increased footfall makes walking down the street later at night a bit safer. And if people come for Sainsbury's, there's a chance they'll take a look around and buy from smaller businesses.

[Tim Lund]

To a first approximation, it's about how much rent the landlords can get. By that, I mean they may take into account other considerations, but you need to start with the level of rent, so from the landlord's point of view, what matters is the difference between the best rent they can get for any of the normally permitted uses for this site - which includes as a supermarket, Pizza Express, whatever - and as a pub, gastro or straight up and down boozer. Let's call that £X,000 per annum. I don't actually know what X is - it would be nice if someone who did could fill us in.

Mary has made various assertions about the profitability of the Windmill, but refused to give numbers. I suspect if she had, we'd see that she was looking at operational profit, i.e. ignoring the financing cost of the rent payments on the lease. As such it would be surprising if a pub could not be profitable, but demanding that the site only be used as a pub is a hit to the value of the landlord's investment of £X,000 per annum. Why they should have to accept this is a moot point, especially given that the Two Half's in Sydenham Road was allowed to be converted into a Tescos. Maybe that has something to do with exactly when the planning applications went in, when Lewisham introduced its policy of opposing the closure of pubs, or when applications were made to list the building as an asset of community value. Maybe a planning professional could advise us as to this.

Or it could just be that the agents involved, acting for the landlords and Sainsbury's, missed a trick such as those involved with the Two Half's found, of making a community friendly gesture in helping to pay for the Sydenham Mosaic. I have suggested before that, with the Portas Pilot funding for SEE3 now at an end, a contribution to continue its legacy might be welcome. Hopefully Chris Best, SEE3 Director and Chair picks up this suggestion and contacts the owners, or anyone else who is in contact with Chris could put it to her. She could then contact Dr Gabriel Christodoulou, who I am sure would pay more attention to her than any of us on the Forum. If she doesn't have an email address for him, then Mary should be able to help out, but just an ordinary letter if necessary.

[Eagle]

Much as I hate to see licensed premises close, the pseudo excuse for a Pub you refer to in Sydenham Road was a disaster.

Everything a Pub should not be.

Long may The Windmill remain a Pub. Hopefully the Council will not permit any other development .

[Tim Lund]

Much as I hate to see licensed premises close, the pseudo excuse for a Pub you refer to in Sydenham Road was a disaster.

Everything a Pub should not be.

Long may The Windmill remain a Pub. Hopefully the Council will not permit any other development .

How much better did you think The Windmill was than The Two Half's?

[Eagle]

The Windmill , which opened as a JDW in the mid 90's was a decent pub up to the last 3 or 4 years.

It served decent ales and good food and as Mary pointed out good disabled facilities.

It does seem to have gone down hill in last 3 or 4 years but if modernised and serving quality they could exclude and rif raf.

[Tim Lund]

We're into the unknown when it comes to internet security and I routinely use the same alias whenever I'm online. Essentially this is my identity in this public sphere, it was used in a couple of civil campaigns and if Bono can save the world under his ludicrous disyllable I don't see why I can't do the same by borrowing the name of an obscure movie star of yesteryear, himself enjoying retirement in Beverley Hills.

It's an interesting question: identity in the internet age. I regularly have to tender for work, place myself in an online professional context and I happen to have an absolutely unique birth name. In fact, the first thing you did, Tim, when I signed off a private message with my real name, was google me. I'm not on facebook, I don't tweet or use LinkedIn and I protect my privacy, but equally, I don't abuse anonymity. I stand by most of what I write and say but I don't entirely trust others to give me the benefit of the doubt. For example, if I had contracted Tim Lund for a job in which his strength of character was an important part of the contract, then a google search might unearth some of the heavy handed tactics he uses here to put his point across and I might, just perhaps, decide that I prefer someone easier to deal with.

Having said that, I've met him and he's a pussy cat!

Responding to this will take us far from the Windmill, so I'll do so in the Town Asylum - if I do.

[Eagle]

Went past today and thought the whole row looked like a shanty town.

Very sad.

I hope those that wanted The Windmill closed are content with their good work.

[Robin Orton]

There was an interesting presentation about this by marymck (late of this parish) at the Forest Hill ward assembly this afternoon. The property is apparently now on the market for £1m freehold (up from £800,000) - I've forgotten what she said the annual leasehold rent would be. Mary is planning to set up an informal action group to consider possible options for running the pub as a community asset, which could be developed further if and when the six month moratorium on any sale, which can be imposed in consequence of its having been listed as an asset of community value, comes into effect.