Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

owlwise · Post by **owlwise** » 28 Jun 2014 19:24

Thanks for your response. Maybe I was a bit hasty with my criticism without seeing lower part of the mural.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 12 Jul 2014 18:37

Can someone remind me how long this has been going on...
I recall i started my Stag do there in 1998 ...with a coach picking us up in front after a few bevies.
Anyway I do think that we are caught up in an endless cycle of recriminations...Glaciers move quicker than this!
I wish that Lewisham had some imagination and had planned the outlets to be cafés with a town plaza in front as the Sydenham gateway. This would have provided a vibrant area with a busy day and early evening trade ..
A massive mistake to slow Sainsburys to take a spot...when its not needed. Rather a Cafe Rouge type of place and a Costa with other social gathering places....
Wishful thinking .......

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 10:27

Steveofsyd wrote: I wish that Lewisham had some imagination and had planned the outlets to be cafés with a town plaza in front as the Sydenham gateway. This would have provided a vibrant area with a busy day and early evening trade...

I'm not here to defend Lewisham Council by any means but, as I've explained many times before, there was a substantial number of people who wanted the pub retained. Hardly a surprise that councillors responded to public opinion by designating a conservation area in order to secure the future of the pub (albeit the developer largely demolished it without consent anyway).

In addition, had the future of the pub not been secured, it's highly unlikely that the developer would have been generous enough to devote a third of the site to a public square. In other words, you can't assume that the only alternative development would have been what's on site now without the pub.

Further discussions will be held with the developer later this month and I'm sure that those who are able to will update the Forum once they've taken place.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 10:32

biscuitman1978 wrote: Further discussions will be held with the developer later this month and I'm sure that those who are able to will update the Forum once they've taken place.

Who are "those who are able", and how is this status acquired?

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 10:45

Tim Lund wrote:
biscuitman1978 wrote: Further discussions will be held with the developer later this month and I'm sure that those who are able to will update the Forum once they've taken place.
Who are "those who are able", and how is this status acquired?

I understand that our ward councillors will be meeting with Purelake (on the basis that they are our elected representatives), as will Syd Soc reps (on the basis that Syd Soc is the local amenity society). I have also been asked to attend (as someone who has taken a particular interest and has some expertise in the field).

One of our ward councillors will be able to advise whether others have been invited to attend.

Hope that helps.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 11:02

It helps confirm the semi-official status of SydSoc, and you too now seems, as community representatives.

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 11:22

Tim Lund wrote:It helps confirm the semi-official status of SydSoc, and you to (sic) now seems, as community representatives.

Let me be clear that I am not attending as a community representative. I am attending as a local resident with a personal interest in seeing the Greyhound rebuilt. I do, however, read what is being written on this forum and that inevitably helps to shape my views. In addition, so far as I am able, I am happy to report back.

As for Syd Soc, local amenity societies across the country are asked to engage in discussions on planning and development issues. Syd Soc is no different.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 11:26

Biscuitman1978 - as someone who was also in the loop re hiatuses in the development of 278 - 280 Kirkdale, you are a paid up member of our local Establishment.

Live with it.

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 11:41

Tim Lund wrote:Biscuitman1978 - as someone who was also in the loop re hiatuses in the development of 278 - 280 Kirkdale, you are a paid up member of our local Establishment.

Live with it.

I'm not prepared to continue this juvenile debate on the Forum, Tim. Please phone me if you feel you really want to continue, but right now I have constructive things to do like volunteer for the arts festival. If that makes me part of the 'local Establishment' then that's great.

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 13 Jul 2014 12:02

Sorry Tim, you are out of line here.

Biscuit man gas a personal view which I agree with. Does that make me part of the establishment? Whatever that means??!!

He's doing a great job doing something he believes in. If others believe in something else, rather than chastise those that have a different view to you on a forum, why not try to do follow the view you believe in and try to make that a reality?

As stated, I think Sydenham needs this building badly. It's got potential to be a great asset to Sydenham, especially as it's being designed for a particular use, which is as a pub in an area that has lost many of them in recent times.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 13 Jul 2014 13:03

Lee

I know you are a great supporter of retaining ( sorry nothing of the original surely will remain ) this fine example of a Georgian Pub .

I have spoken to many locals and the majority think it is now time ( and has been for some time ) to pull down and possibly build a nice Coffee Shop or just open space.

I am all for retaining pubs but this is a lost cause( perhaps we should spend our efforts in reopening the Windmill , in a more upmarket fashion )

Mid Kirkdale looks like a shanty town.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 13:46

Perhaps after 8(?) or longer years , the Sydenham Society or Council, or whomever, could try to gauge the views of the Sydenham population as a whole. Instead of the heated debate on this website by a tiny minority of residents, the parties might think about doing a survey of the residents' opinions. This could take the form of a street survey, in front, and down the high street. Maybe also a leaflet drop to start the ball rolling.
The questions could be agreed between the council and Sydenhan Society and Purelake could be asked to pay.
At least we would then know what everyone wanted not just those who are prepared to shout the loudest.
Go up to Crystal Palace now in the sun, and you will see what people like and what we are missing

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 14:17

Up in Forest Hill today, the pubs and cafes were full of people having lunch, many sitting outside along the South Circular and ramshackle Dartmouth Road with buses and lorry trundling by. It's the same in CP. Pubs in prime locations, even on hugely busy roads, can do very well.

As for size: is the foot print of the Sylvan Post any bigger than the Greyhound? I doubt it. The latter would be perfectly viable pub IF it was properly rebuilt and IF there was a pub business ready to take it on. Would Purelake be the landlords? If so, surely they are denying themselves an income stream by not finishing the build?

I don't think surveying residents is a great idea. You have to ask the right questions, and that is a skill in itself. Whichever of the interested parties did it, they'd have an agenda and that will colour the questions or the interpretation of the answers, even if unintentionally. And if people don't have the vision to see what would be possible, they'll just say tear it down.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 14:47

I don't agree that a survey would be a bad idea. We have had nothing but bias in one form or another on this website.
I agree that the questions, if not done properly, can skew the answers...BUT, there are ways and means of forming the right questions...that's the point of getting the correct people to do it and agreeing the questions up front with all parties.
I'm not disputing that the right pub or other establishments would thrive...with outside space as in Crystal palace etc. I just feel that the majority should have the opportunity to voice their opinion.

mosy · Post by **mosy** » 13 Jul 2014 15:28

My view is that I have no strong feelings on what happens to it as long as something does - soon. I expect many Sydenhamites hold a similar view irrespective of any specific survey questions.

Sadly, after this number of years, any heritage appreciation is likely being replaced by "Oh, that used to be the half-demolished eyesore on Cobbs Corner for years" as that's now all it will be remembered as being

Thanks to Biscuitman1978 for the update. I hadn't considered the non-viability to the owner of it being an empty plaza or seating area so it looks like that's not an option. Is there any reason why it couldn't be a family pub that also serves coffee, at least during daytime hours? Wouldn't that fulfil both desires? I read that document of variations someone kindly posted but can't remember if there was anything that'd preclude such dual use.

Let's hope the re-building resumes soon.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 15:38

I'll second that Mosey....I'm keen that we have something that is vibrant and serves a wide range of people both during the day and evening.... Something that makes Sydenham look welcoming.
Does anyone know if Saisburys have been told that there is no room for outside displays and trolleys in the narrow space. Last thing we need is that....
Also any news on the other lets....any bites yet?

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 15:44

Steveofsyd wrote:I don't agree that a survey would be a bad idea. We have had nothing but bias in one form or another on this website.
I agree that the questions, if not done properly, can skew the answers...BUT, there are ways and means of forming the right questions...that's the point of getting the correct people to do it and agreeing the questions up front with all parties.
I'm not disputing that the right pub or other establishments would thrive...with outside space as in Crystal palace etc. I just feel that the majority should have the opportunity to voice their opinion.

Just to be clear, only my comments about a survey were directed at you. The rest was a general riposte to the 'it wouldn't be viable as a pub' opinions.

My problem with a survey is that people are very bad at visualising what's possible. Most people can easily visualise an empty site converted in a plaza. Fewer will see all the possibilities for a rebuilt pub. It's why we need people of vision to come in and do these things. Like Antic - if you'd had asked people if the old post office in FH would work as a pub, they would have laughed in your face.

And for everyone agitating for it to be turned into a nice open space - how well are the pocket parks being used when the market or other special events aren't on? Underused empty spaces are dead spaces.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 16:20

biscuitman1978 wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:Biscuitman1978 - as someone who was also in the loop re hiatuses in the development of 278 - 280 Kirkdale, you are a paid up member of our local Establishment.

Live with it.
I'm not prepared to continue this juvenile debate on the Forum, Tim. Please phone me if you feel you really want to continue, but right now I have constructive things to do like volunteer for the arts festival. If that makes me part of the 'local Establishment' then that's great.

There's nothing juvenile about transparency, and life within or without the local Establishment can be as good as you want to make it.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 16:27

At some rent of course this would be viable as a pub - although of what sort, gastro or old fashioned boozer adds another dimension. At some other rent, it might also be viable as a Pizza Express, which I think would have a more family friendly offer than either. If there was no building there at all, but the area was retained in the private sector, so that the management of the adjoining retail space could use it and manage it, maybe including well run and marketed street markets, then that's another potential profitable use.

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 16:48

Tim Lund wrote:It helps confirm the semi-official status of SydSoc, and you too now seems, as community representatives.

Here's a question. Who does the site belong to? It is Purelake? Next question: do they have to consult with the community or can they, as a business, consult with whomsoever they like? They have to deal with the council because of the conservation order, but beyond that, is this a meeting of 'community representatives' or just people Purelake think it would be a good idea to consult?

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