Crazy land values - what is normal?

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Tim Lund
Posts: 6718
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by Tim Lund »

A friend sent me a link to this graphic, showing values of small sites with outline planning permission in England. It was intended to show the impact of green belts, so these are all plotted with the same land value, though I don't quite understand why.

Image

Look carefully, and you will see this map was produced by someone called Sevrin Waights. This is his web site at the LSE.

But what interests me about this is the difference between London, and to a lesser extent Oxford and Cambridge, those two red pillars either side of the tower that is London, and the absence of any premium within other green belts, e.g for Birmingham. Manchester, Leeds or Bristol. Unless there is a bit of a spike there for Manchester.

It got me thinking as to what you'd expect. Here in London - although maybe it's a result of playing Monopoly - we're so used to the idea of high land values in city centres, that we don't see it as abnormal, and however high land values are, we just see the pattern, without quantification, and see it as normal. But this infographic shows this ain't necessarily so. As a Londoner, it's tempting to ask who'd want to live in Birmingham anyway, although it's really not such a bad place. And Manchester definitely does have something going for it, without (in 2007 at least) silly land prices as in London. So it really doesn't have to be like that, but also, you can't just blame green belts.

I wish I had time to research this more, although thanks to a Twitter conversation, I have some leads to follow. However, some possibly simple minded economics suggests that it's just about supply where people want to build, and that the case of Manchester, within its green belt, where the supply will be of existing developed land, it is easy enough to redevelop such land to stop prices going crazy. In the jargon, there is high elasticity of supply. And if in Manchester, why not also in London, Oxford or Cambridge?

Of course London is a bit different, since it's a global city on a scale which Manchester is not, so is subject to far greater demand, especially from overseas. Short term elasticity of supply is always going to be lower - that's just another way of saying, even with the best will in the world, it takes a bit of time and effort to get round to planning development. So it's reasonable to expect some kind of spike in London land values, but surely not that much, especially since, any sensible investor, should understand that supply will eventually be forthcoming, so undermining the value of land they pay up for. Another way of putting this is to say that even without green belts, you'd expect there to be a price spike in major global cities - but how much? There's another question I don't have answers to, and it's made harder to answer because other global cities do have comparable planning restrictions - thinking here of Paris and New York. Maybe there's a pattern here, which is that in such global cities, groups with political influence develop with a vested interest in restricting the elasticity of supply - a bit like medieval guild masters would restrict outsiders coming in to their towns to practice their crafts.
hairybuddha

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by hairybuddha »

There's another question I don't have answers to, and it's made harder to answer because other global cities do have comparable planning restrictions - thinking here of Paris and New York. Maybe there's a pattern here, which is that in such global cities, groups with political influence develop with a vested interest in restricting the elasticity of supply - a bit like medieval guild masters would restrict outsiders coming in to their towns to practice their crafts.
This is the crux of the issue, isn't it? Whilst it might make social and (some) economic sense to tackle the issue of excessive land values (land value tax anyone?), almost the entire basis of our economy and especially our economic recovery is financial services and house prices. So it would be political madness for any centre ground politician lead with this stuff.
Eagle
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Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by Eagle »

Tim

Surely you do not want unhindered development of the Green Belt. I dread to think what living in Londinium would be like if there had been no GB.

Instead of about 9 million would be about 25 million.

With land being so valuable one has to watch carefully new developments, Imagine for instance if LBL got planning permission to build on Mayow Park or Wells Park. That you solve their financial problems for some time.

Also need to watch these garden grabbing developments. In a small number of cases they are justified but in most pure greed and detriment of the environment.
hairybuddha

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by hairybuddha »

Eagle - When was the last time you did anything that utilised the green belt outside of London?
Eagle
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Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by Eagle »

I have travelled through it by train. It is the lungs of London


I am not selfish , not all about me.

I believe I heard half of Bromley in the green belt , so quite close to us.
Tim Lund
Posts: 6718
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by Tim Lund »

Eagle wrote:Tim

Surely you do not want unhindered development of the Green Belt. I dread to think what living in Londinium would be like if there had been no GB.

Instead of about 9 million would be about 25 million.

With land being so valuable one has to watch carefully new developments, Imagine for instance if LBL got planning permission to build on Mayow Park or Wells Park. That you solve their financial problems for some time.

Also need to watch these garden grabbing developments. In a small number of cases they are justified but in most pure greed and detriment of the environment.
You're missing the point, Eagle - I'm suggesting that it's not green belts which are the main cause of excessive inner city land prices, which is why I wrote about Manchester. What I want is a well planned densification of existing urban areas - and if you look at land and property prices, that's what the market is saying too. I'm sure someone will soon accuse me of wanting skyscrapers everywhere, but that is not what I want. But my dinner's ready, so I stop here :)
Eagle
Posts: 10658
Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Crazy land values - what is normal?

Post by Eagle »

Tim

Sorry if slightly misunderstood one .

I know you are very concerned about all the well deserving people who need , and should have , housing.

Of course you can fit quite a few more persons into Sydenham if you choose so to do.
Could be more blocks like on Dacres Road ?
Could be garden grabbing ?
Building on parks and open spaces ?
Building on allotments ? I believe you would be against this.

Major increase in population would require vast infrastructure to support. ie sewage , water , roads , public transport etc etc.
The matter of water especially is important. I realise last few months been mostly wet but general trend in SE Angleterre is for drier climate and with growing population water poor. This is a very important point.
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