SYDENHAM'S POCKET PARKS

[leenewham]

These are currently empty spaces and don't really add much to the high street. I think it's a problem that needs solving.

I know a market uses them occasionally, but when it's not being used by the market, what can these be used for? Year round?

Lets try to keep this positive and have really exciting, visionary ideas for our town so the powers that be say 'wow, we must make this happen' or 'I'd love to see that, lets make it reality' rather than the usual 'we can't do this because we have a contract with this large supplier for 2000 years' or 'we must have endless consultations so everyones ideas are taken into account so it ends up so bland that it's not really interesting to anyone' .

So, positive ideas on a postcard please below:

[stuart]

This is not really the season for pocket park activities - but its a good time to think what could go there when there is some sun. I am worried we will be beaten in the rush the by the christian evangelists miked up and proclaiming their gospel.

Not that I am against anybody wishing to share their religion. Its just that as most us Sydenhamites don't do church, don't want to do church and don't do theology. We simply look the other way and hurry by. In doing so we ignore and negate the very purpose of the concept. A bit of greenery where we can relax and take breath. A bit of pre-emptive displacement would be great. Something that changes so we would want to stop, look and linger for a little while.

Sorry, haven't got any good ideas. Just so sorry the original idea of turning the Midland Bank didn't make it into 'Bean Counters'. A coffee bar won't be spilling into that area anytime soon. That would have been good. Very good.

Stuart

[JMLF]

Is there any reason the market couldn't be more then monthly to make use of the spaces or is it a mix of not enough demand / the other markets that operate on a sunday meaning that monthly is the way forward? Or possibly a food market and a craft market alternating every 2 weeks? (I gather the see3 monthly market is a combination of both)


- a pop-up cycle surgery could erect a small tent every month or few weeks? (there is one every few weeks at Herne Hill Market)

- Live music? (with local cafes allowing patrons to take cups/glasses outside to sit and enjoy)

... That's all I got at the mo - most of the things that pop-up in the ol' noodle are to do with food stalls or cafe's with an open air area which I guess would be the obvious use...

[Ruby]

Occasional pop up activities for kids, such as bouncy castles, Punch and Judy shows, face painting and art activities.

[Tim Lund]

It's a management issue. The Council should tender a franchise to run them all for say three years, and subject to predefined terms and conditions, let them get on with it. Something like the current deal being offered for the Mayow Park cafe.

[simon]

I have to say I think there is a design fault with the way the Venner and Queensthorpe squares are laid out, regarding performing arts. The trees, lights and benches are great when the squares are empty, but you could not have a significant performance as they would all get in the way. Not really thought through IMO.

[G-Man]

Positivity?

I reckon a couple of street food stalls in each, or at least one. Say the one in the middle, same side as Billings. They could rotate every week. Thinking Burritos or pizza or burgers with a few palates chucked about to sit on.

G-man

[Tim Lund]

I have to say I think there is a design fault with the way the Venner and Queensthorpe squares are laid out, regarding performing arts. The trees, lights and benches are great when the squares are empty, but you could not have a significant performance as they would all get in the way. Not really thought through IMO.

That may be, but it shouldn't be the end of the story - such physical infrastructure can change. It would be good to learn about other pocket parks which do work, and why. I've previously raised their management - and someone with experience of managing pocket parks would probably be the person to ask about their layout.

I'd guess that one key factor was a flexible seating system, so a place nearby to store chairs which could be easily put out and taken back in.

[dickp]

The odd thing is there are several farmers' market "companies", which organise weekly markets throughout south east London. Lord knows why Lewisham Council hasn't invited these companies to tender for weekly "slots" in Sydenham's various pocket parks.

They are
City and County Farmers markets - runs (more or less) weekly markets in Herne Hill and Lewisham, amongst other locations.
Brockley Market - self-evident location!
Horniman Market, Forest Hill - organised by Griffin, Kendell & Cox.
London Farmers' Markets - Balham, Blackheath, Brixton.
Urban Farmers' Market - Peckham.

[leenewham]

Some good suggestions so far.

Here are a few more ideas;





http://mommypoppins.com/files/imagecach ... slide3.jpg

How about some cool funky seating rather than a bench out of the councils approved supplier catalogue:





Put a sign saying 'KENTE TOO' on this and you get what i'm driving at:

This is in NY, I've been it it, and it's wonderful and well used with a cafe in it:





How about a bit of fun in the built environment:


Or how about (perhaps during the arts festival) having this (it's a mobile cinema):


I contacted them a few years ago about the arts festival and the pocket parks to see how much it would be. Harringay Green Lanes traders have used them in the past. They are lovely people. Details here:
http://www.vintagemobilecinema.co.uk/history

There is NO reason why anything like the ideas put here can't happen. Councils often say 'you can't do this because' but it's just them being difficult. They are there to serve their borough, not to just impose their own rules and regulations at the expense of it because it's easier.

Feel inspired? Then please post more ideas. Hopefully Lewisham will listen if enough people join in.

[jonathan_har]

How about a regular market, you know like an London Albert Square type market, on alternate weeks to a farmers and craft type market perhaps. It might not be posh in the way most of us on the forum would like, but it would be colourful and lively, and probably popular.

[Tim Lund]

There is NO reason why anything like the ideas put here can't happen. Councils often say 'you can't do this because' but it's just them being difficult. They are there to serve their borough, not to just impose their own rules and regulations at the expense of it because it's easier.

I think you're being a little unfair. What would make anyone take on the task of developing lively markets here - or anywhere else you care to mention? It should be a fun, rewarding thing to do, but it would also be a lot of work. I mean no disrespect at all to local government officers, but I just don't think someone who goes into local government will be the right person to make these decisions. That's why I think something like a franchise is needed, which would appeal to someone, or organisation, with an entrepreneurial streak, and would give them the chance to earn more than they would in local government. The role of local government would be to set some basic terms and conditions, simple enough for it to be easy to make sure they are adhered to, and they butt out of it until such time as the franchise comes up for renewal.

At the moment, I think there will be someone in the Coucil who looks after the issuing of street trading licences, which might cover this, but I doubt if the career structure will match the profile I describe.

[leenewham]

I don't think I'm being unfair Tim. Infact you will find many within these councils will say exactly the same thing as me (they have said it to me!). I'm speaking from experience from working with multiple councils across London. It depends on the officers and different departments working together in a council. Some are good at this (some are actually excellent at it), some aren't and fall into the trap of 'its not our policy' or departments pulling up the drawbridge to other departments to make it difficult to achieve anything. There is no reason why any of the things above can't happen.

But management of markets is an issue and as Dickp says, it can and does work very well. I know a very good market management company that is in charge of some of the best markets in London.

But anyway, back to the issue of what our pocket parks would be…ideas?

[Tim Lund]

We're not really disagreeing here, Lee, it's just that I tend to focus on the management issues rather than the immediate ideas which will inspire visitors to a pocket park. As you write, you "know a very good market management company that is in charge of some of the best markets in London"; well, all I'm saying is that Lewisham should set up a tendering process which will make them want to bid, with an officer prior to that researching what physical and management structures would work best, by asking them, likely competitors and officers in other local authorities.

Moving on the ideas and examples - I just don't have your background in this, but here is somewhere I was recently, and where 50 years before I remember my Dad using the space in front, where those tables are, as a car park:



I took the photo on a rainy January Sunday morning, which is why no one was sitting outside, but inside it was packed with parent and young children. 50 years before it had been a Sainsbury's store, and the store work either side of the door says 'Twining House', so presumably built for retail.

A few points. First, we need outdoors space to work as an extension of the existing High street offer. In this case, I assume, there isn't a management problem, since Barefoot books will own the curtilage, but there will be a problem in the management of our pocket parks, if they are not to be seen as competing with existing traders - something, I have been told, accounts for the somewhat limited offer when our pocket parks have been used.

Second, the space needs to be designed to encourage people to hang around - so having place to sit and have a coffee is a good idea. If there could also be something to make children want to be there - with parent in the background - even better; the parents will end up spending money. So perhaps there could be somewhere for story tellers to perform.

This example, being a bookshop, and the way my thoughts develop from it, reinforces the first of my two points, when you think about how Kirkdale Books would feel about the sort of pocket park uses I'm suggesting, since they also host similar activities. It would be great if they could somehow extend themselves in this way, but it would be more work, fewer days off to recharge batteries; if they were not interested (and I doubt if they would be) I too would be reluctant to bring in competitors for them. So there I am, also wanting to limit our pocket park offer.

As I said, I do find myself thinking more about the management issues - not so much fun, I know, but very important, nonetheless.

[JMLF]

Similar to a few suggestions - how about pairing up a couple of complementary traders to take the spot for a single saturday or sunday every month (and have a rotation of pairs)..

examples:
Van Dough (http://www.vandough.co.uk/about/4556132941) and Late Knight Brewery (http://www.lateknightsbrewery.co.uk/brewery.html)

Mr Muffin (http://www.mr-muffin.co.uk/about.html) and one of the local coffee shops

Would give a reason to hang around and chitchat if having a drink and a bite rather then just nab a takeaway something or other and be on your way.

[Lois]

I would like to see herbs, fruit and some vegetables grown around Sydenham for the people to help themselves to.

If this was incorporated on a small scale in each area, people would want to keep an eye on what was growing and locals could be involved in managing it all.


http://www.incredible-edible-todmorden. ... round-town

And I love the idea of craft and food markets, you can't have too many of those in my book. Has anyone seen how busy it is at the West Norwood Feast events?

[Toots]

I have tweeted the arts festival to ask if they be utilising them this year. Seems to me to be a way of engaging the local community with both the local arts and the local landscape.

[leenewham]

West Norwood Feast is great.

Hopefully the markets will evolve into this in Sydenham. SEE3 and our cllrs know about the Feast, I presume they have gone to see it for themselves.

There are some really good ideas on here. Keep them coming.

[mosy]

As they are forecasting rain until May, what about a plastic gazebo shelter with bench seats and perhaps a Hyde Park soap box scheduled for say 2.30pm (book your slot), or a school age children's debating one during school holidays.

It's asking a lot for miscellaneous stallholders to stand all day in the cold/rain for possibly few sales if not linked with a proximate shop. Ange and co deserve a medal for providing her flower service.

[mosy]

Just came across innumerable videos on Youtube being international versions of the "official version" of street dancing scenes of Happy (Pharrell Williams). This is the London version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYyOl8Q2EI

Could we do one for Sydenham? Along our newly refurbished Sydenham Road, cutting to pocket squares and parks/green spaces or points of interest? It might not put Sydenham on the map, but it'd be a better promo on here and hopefully elsewhere than, sorry leenewham, pointing out how shop fascias could be improved

I've no idea about video, editing and uploading to Youtube but I'd be happy to dance along the street