Star architects

[Tim Lund]

OK - this one could have been a digression on the

London Planning thread

Developers also get a well known Architect on board and once approval is given ditch then for someone else who will adapt the concept to cram in extra floor space for extra $$$$.
Developers will also put in multiple applications for a development on the same principle that "the bomber will always get through".

but making reference to a couple of other threads

Your previous bit of , and again apologies for strong language, intellectual chicanery (vernacular housing , developers in the past were no different to now etc etc ) adds nothing to the debate .

By 'vernacular' I just mean an architecture which is sufficiently familiar and accepted that people generally take it for granted, although occasionally reflecting how satisfying it is - much as you might with a great pint of beer. We have had such vernaculars - it's a shame we don't now; I do think over ambitious professional architects, wanting awards and kudos at industry shindigs such as MIPIM are part of the problem.

Source here

and

I guess I have similar objections to the Zaha Hadid building - it seems, like a lot of modern 'star' architecture to be about saying 'look what amazing things we can do with modern materials', but come in costing a huge amount of money - in this case £11 million I think. I really would prefer modern technology to be used in building more humane places for people to live, and more generally affordably.

Astonishing garden grab and other marvels of architecture

I'd also like to put in a link to posts which have been made about the new TNG building in Wells Park Road, but I'm up to the three links a post anti-spam rule, so that will come in a minute. This is because the first I ever heard about the architecture industry shindig, MIPIM, was in an informal conversation with one of the architects of the TNG building; on a strictly confidential, middle-class professional to fellow middle-class professional basis, I got the impression that for him this was more about boosting his reputation there than helping young people in Sydenham. Why should he not? How was he to know I was a class traitor?

Well, I was at a meeting in the TNG recently, and it's an impressive looking building, and I could see through to another room where some kids were relaxing, socialising, playing cards. I thought that was really nice - not the social isolation of some computer games. But how much did it cost? Could the money not have been better spent on improvements to the physical structure of existing premises in Sydenham Road and Kirkdale, creating spaces where young and old could easily and informally spend time, together or in groups with their own age groups as they wished?

I don't expect architects or anyone else not to want to have brilliant careers, but somehow our political structures don't help them help us.

[Tim Lund]

I'd also like to put in a link to posts which have been made about the new TNG building in Wells Park Road, but I'm up to the three links a post anti-spam rule, so that will come in a minute.

It's been a long minute.

This is the TNG thread

TNG Youth Centre Wells Park Road

From which I have taken this quote (removing the poster's name, because I'm using it to make a critical point, and I think it's better to remove it)

they were a bit slow out of the starting block, but FINALLY they have gotten lots of things going. There is a soft play session there on Wednesdays and Fridays 10-12. And Latino Baby I think on Tuesdays. They are also hosting film clubs for the over 55s. So the TNG is being used by community groups in the morning and in the afternoon it is mainly open for youngster 8+. They do a lot of football and I also saw a martial arts club in there. Worth dropping by and looking at the time table. I don't think timetable info is available anywhere on line.

the critical point being that now it's built, TNG doesn't seem very well organised. I may be wrong, and it will almost certainly seem unfair to those who are trying to get things organised (I don't know who they are), because they probably need to be better resourced. But that would be the main point; it's possible to find resources for some nice cool architecture, but apparently simpler things, such as managing facilities, seems actually to be harder. Maybe it really is.

But the politics of this is that the impressive new building can be pointed to as a very visible symbol of commitment to supporting young people,

The flagship £3.5m TNG youth centre in Sydenham was officially opened by Sir Steve Bullock on Monday 10 June.

Source Sydenham Society website

while criticism - such as I am venturing here - risks seeming carping, so will normally be suppressed. That's an example of what I meant by saying political structures aren't helping.

As to how money could have been better spent on architiects, this other thread had a suggestion

Re-engineering the high street

what you you need to do to retail premises, such as those on Sydenham Road, with flats above, and a facade which you would want to retain, so that adjoining ground floor retail units could be combined, [to create space to swing cats, play cards without getting in the way of other people] and what would it cost?

I don't know what it would cost, but I think £3.5 million would have gone a long way

As to why this doesn't happen - it's because the ownership of retail premises along Sydenham Road is too fragmented. It's the point I made most recently in this thread

Natural planning

in which I mentioned finding

evidence of - still existing - quoted property companies having had a role in the original development of Sydenham Road, over 100 years ago now

But they have long sold out for reasons I think I understand, but I'm not going to go into now. There is, however, a nice link back to where this thread started, since the company I found on those title deeds, British Land, was the same company that now prefers to invest in such star architecture as the Cheesegrater, rather than help renew Sydenham Road. That's another example of what I meant by saying political structures aren't helping.

[leenewham]

I gave a talk there to students about branding last year in conjunction with the RBS bank (they impressed me great deal). It was very rewarding, as these things always are. I think the building is great. I'm not a huge fan of it from the outside, I'm unsure about his it will look in 10 years time, but it really works inside. Environment does make a difference. In the long term, I think it's a good investment.

Good buildings, good architecture is important in civic buildings as long as they perform. They should solve problems and be sympathetic (no blend in, but look like they belong) to the surrounding area.

I'd say top marks to all involved in this project, it's a great local asset and judging by the young people who were at the talks, they were engaged and even asked questions at the end.

The only issue I had was with the classroom style desks, more informal, beanbag, sofa and lounging classrooms can really spark creative thought and problem solving. The best meetings I've had with clients were like this. We won a pitch to rebrand last minute.comm years ago by hosting a meeting in a stretch limo (which we organised to feel spontaneous, which is what their brand is all about). We won the rebranding of AOL by hosting the meeting on sofas with pots of tea to make it feel informal, the client really opened up.

[Tim Lund]

I had a nice tweet back from the architects, @arckarchitects, on this:

Thanks, Tim, some positive comments there. Not much we can do about politics, but glad the building seems to be well received.

Is that really true, that there's not much we can do about politics? We can spend our working lives working for the machine, but why do so outside it?

Here's a suggestion - help me out here

Re-engineering the high street

I'm going to contact some architects and engineers to see if they have any rough ideas, or know of places elsewhere in London where this has happened.

[leenewham]

You may find some info here Tim:

https://www.facebook.com/WhatIfHighStreets

[Tim Lund]

Lots of inspiration there Lee, but not much on costs, or specific examples of architects working on creating larger spaces within existing buildings. I appreciate that the sorts of intervention you are talking about won't cost that much, and that's great, although when a professional such as you does such work, but for the machine, they'll have to be paid (I'm not asking you to reveal your daily rate - whatever it is, I'm sure it will be less than it should be)

Here I'm more interested in projects which would cost a significant amount, and so attract top quality architects, wanting to attract attention to themselves, win prestige, get the Mayor down for a photo-op, and go on to stellar careers. Can they do anything for us, other than perhaps give an idea of how much they would ask?

[leenewham]

It depends on the area, the shop, the business, the landlords and the design.

There are plenty of shops that have appropriated other businesses and knocked through. Cobbs corner is one. I believe this is how Selfridges started too. I'm sure Woolworths in the high street wasn't built as one large store originally.

The trend these days it to sub let. More and more shops are letting out unused spaces to other businesses. This can be a bad thing or a good thing, depending on how it's done.

Bigger brands need bigger spaces. Start ups need small spaces and reduced cost and risk. Thats why many businesses start on market stalls.

If we really want to regenerate Sydenham, it makes sense to encourage markets and offer a mechanism where they can upgrade to a shop once they know their business is proven and they have built loyalty and a following. If they become successful, like Meze Mengal or La Querce in Brockley, then they can expand once the business is proven. Joanna's in Crystal Palace is another example. Or they expand to there sites as the brand grows like Giraffe (which started in quote a small shop in Hampstead, which is still there). But it's an organic process.

I'd rather have lots of local, independent businesses that earn local loyalty, grown locally and contribute to the street scene and community locally, than to create large spaces that local businesses can't sustain and only attract large, identikit brands that make all our high streets look generic.

Why do you want to knock through buildings into larger premises anyway? There are so many other problems that need fixing, I don't understand why this is suddenly the next forum campaign?

Getting information on demographics, footfall, rates and other statistical data to be used to encourage or reassure businesses to come to Sydenham would be far more useful.

[Tim Lund]

It depends on the area, the shop, the business, the landlords and the design.

There are plenty of shops that have appropriated other businesses and knocked through. Cobbs corner is one. I believe this is how Selfridges started too. I'm sure Woolworths in the high street wasn't built as one large store originally.

Woolworths? Do you mean Superdrug? Whatever, it's possible - how much did it cost, how much would it cost? What makes the difference to it being done well or badly?

The trend these days it to sub let. More and more shops are letting out unused spaces to other businesses. This can be a bad thing or a good thing, depending on how it's done.

Sounds as if flexibility is key. Here you mention cases where flexibility allows larger spaces to become collections of smaller spaces - but I'm sure the aim would be to have them working together, in the sense of offering as much as possible the services / products same sort of people will want - so like the various franchises on the ground floor in Selfridges, Oxford Street. But if solid brick walls divide up a space, there isn't this flexibility, and there's not the opportunity to get either a larger tenant, or a collections of smaller tenants working together. Unless perhaps in a street market, or in a pocket park, which is of course cheaper, but people don't always want to be outside.

Remember - a starting point for this line of thought was Rod Taylor's comment that there's not space to swing a cat in any of our local cafés.

What I'd like to know is how rental yields vary with floor space - how much additional rent could an investor get out of owning adjoining properties by combining them, and would it pay to do it well?

Bigger brands need bigger spaces. Start ups need small spaces and reduced cost and risk. Thats why many businesses start on market stalls.

If we really want to regenerate Sydenham, it makes sense to encourage markets and offer a mechanism where they can upgrade to a shop once they know their business is proven and they have built loyalty and a following. If they become successful, like Meze Mengal or La Querce in Brockley, then they can expand once the business is proven. Joanna's in Crystal Palace is another example. Or they expand to there sites as the brand grows like Giraffe (which started in quote a small shop in Hampstead, which is still there). But it's an organic process.

I'd rather have lots of local, independent businesses that earn local loyalty, grown locally and contribute to the street scene and community locally, than to create large spaces that local businesses can't sustain and only attract large, identikit brands that make all our high streets look generic.

I think this is a mistake. High streets without the flexibility I am suggesting also attract identikit brands such as Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, Poundland and Subway. We all love Billings, but I think the customers in a Costa coffee opposite would help it rather more than the punters in Ladbrokes.

Why do you want to knock through buildings into larger premises anyway? There are so many other problems that need fixing, I don't understand why this is suddenly the next forum campaign?

I think I've explained this already.

I'm not saying this should be the next Forum campaign - it may actually not be commercially viable, but I want to know the numbers. But it is a problem people have identified, and bringing in larger scale investment may be a good idea. It should not be ruled out just because we prefer to grow organically with existing businesses,

Getting information on demographics, footfall, rates and other statistical data to be used to encourage or reassure businesses to come to Sydenham would be far more useful.

There's masses of data available free from the London.gov.uk datastore, for example this



I'm also interested in finding out what information is available from the pattern of mobile phone usage of people as they move around - this is something which has to be transforming awareness of footfall on our High Streets.