Not two weeks since Sydenham took a huge step forward with the wonderful Blue Mountain Cafe, does it take 10 steps back with the re-branding of Londis to "SYDENHAM HYPERMARKET": Sydenham Downmarket more like. The sign is horrendous as are the rags on a rail outside. Angie's smile might "light up the high street" but this monstrousity has Catford written all over it.
Stick to the blooms Ange.
Boycott it; Bin it.
SYDENHAM HYPERMARET
Why dont people realize that how you look is how you are perceived? Is it really that difficult to make your business attractive, and then they moan when people go elsewhere blaming the likes of Tesco etc.
People like shopping local, just make your shop look like it's a nice place to enter.
It makes the whole high street look shabby.
People like shopping local, just make your shop look like it's a nice place to enter.
It makes the whole high street look shabby.
The sign on the fence has now been painted over thanks to the intervention of the Sydenham Society.
Providing an attractive high street in Sydenham has been an ongoing problem for many years. Before we get carried away it is worth pointing out that many of our local traders already provide highly attractive businesses which look good both externally and internally.
But what can we do about the others? Can I suggest that the following changes will provide improvements in the future:
1. The major part of the high street is now in a conservation area (unfortunately it doesn't include the "hypermarket" mentioned above or the few areas of post war buildings such as Somerfield). Future shop front windows and exteriors should be subject to very much more stringent standards and conditions concerning their signage and appearance. Unfortunately, existing shops can't be changed but when new signs are to be fitted the shop will have to seek approval from the local authority.
2. The opening of new high quality businesses will slowly set a new standard. Following the opening of the Blue Mountain Cafe and the new Sugahill will anyone really now be able to start a successful cafe or coffee bar in Sydenham if it doesn't look attractive? Or a new pub that doesn't match up to the Dolphin or the new bar opening above the bridge? It's possible - but far more unlikely.
3.£2m is about to be spent in the next 18 months on the core high street. This is bound to make the high street look better. It doesn't stop garish signs etc but it will be an very much improved place to walk and shop.
What else can you do? Personally, I'd immediately ban the display of goods (I don't mean chairs and tables for cafes etc) on the pavements. What's the point of spending £2m on laying new pavements only to have them covered with cardboard boxes and cheap goods? I'd also insist that the local authority carries out its statutory duty to keep the high street and the streets in close proximity to it free from rubbish. Currently this seems to beyond them.
Providing an attractive high street in Sydenham has been an ongoing problem for many years. Before we get carried away it is worth pointing out that many of our local traders already provide highly attractive businesses which look good both externally and internally.
But what can we do about the others? Can I suggest that the following changes will provide improvements in the future:
1. The major part of the high street is now in a conservation area (unfortunately it doesn't include the "hypermarket" mentioned above or the few areas of post war buildings such as Somerfield). Future shop front windows and exteriors should be subject to very much more stringent standards and conditions concerning their signage and appearance. Unfortunately, existing shops can't be changed but when new signs are to be fitted the shop will have to seek approval from the local authority.
2. The opening of new high quality businesses will slowly set a new standard. Following the opening of the Blue Mountain Cafe and the new Sugahill will anyone really now be able to start a successful cafe or coffee bar in Sydenham if it doesn't look attractive? Or a new pub that doesn't match up to the Dolphin or the new bar opening above the bridge? It's possible - but far more unlikely.
3.£2m is about to be spent in the next 18 months on the core high street. This is bound to make the high street look better. It doesn't stop garish signs etc but it will be an very much improved place to walk and shop.
What else can you do? Personally, I'd immediately ban the display of goods (I don't mean chairs and tables for cafes etc) on the pavements. What's the point of spending £2m on laying new pavements only to have them covered with cardboard boxes and cheap goods? I'd also insist that the local authority carries out its statutory duty to keep the high street and the streets in close proximity to it free from rubbish. Currently this seems to beyond them.
How about a 'in an ideal world' exhibition in the Kirkdale bookshop where local designers pick a shop and redesign it.
There is supposed to be a wealth of creative talent in Sydenham I'm told.
We could make a before and after montage of the whole high street.
We could gather information on people who do proper sign writing, restore traditonal shop fronts etc to inform and inspire.
Sometimes people just don't know what do do and change shopfronts when in reality all they need is a new sign or help with their window displays.
The rule is 'keep it simple'. Keep it sympathetic to the building. Make it relevant to the business.
Any takers?
There is supposed to be a wealth of creative talent in Sydenham I'm told.
We could make a before and after montage of the whole high street.
We could gather information on people who do proper sign writing, restore traditonal shop fronts etc to inform and inspire.
Sometimes people just don't know what do do and change shopfronts when in reality all they need is a new sign or help with their window displays.
The rule is 'keep it simple'. Keep it sympathetic to the building. Make it relevant to the business.
Any takers?
I don't think that you can draw up plans for other people in this way without being patronising or being rightly accused of "telling people how to run their own businesses".
Lee - you and I aren't standing outside a shop for twelve hours a day selling flowers or paying £40,000 rent each year for the privilege of running a business in Sydenham Road. Drawing up plans telling people who have traded successfully on the high street for ten years how their shops should be designed isn't going to go down too well!
Many high street shopkeepers feel (and they are wrong) that all the local population want them to do is pile it high and sell it cheap and most are very successful at doing just that. Tell the owner of the bottom pound shop that his business is unattractive and could be better designed isn't really going to wash, particularly if you try this just as he steps into his large Mercedes parked at the bottom of Princethorpe Road just after closing time. He's likely to look at you in total puzzlement. His business is a total success in his eyes - it's making piles on money.
We also need to bear in mind that there is price-resistance at a pretty high level even among the better off in this community. What about the guy on a separate thread who was having a business meeting with a colleague and complained about the price of a cup of tea in the BMC at £1.50. I must remember to ask him what businesses he is in and steer clear of that line of work for the remainder of my career!
It is ineffective and patronising to go in for personal and specific attacks on many of the "low-level" businesses in the high street on this website. The owners aren't going to read it and, if they do, won't give a monkeys. This is why I will never criticise specific businesses and shop owners on this website as you and others are doing, sometimes in highly personal but always in patronising terms. Of course I want a more diverse high street but you ain't going to achieve it by ranting, sneering or by imposing standards from outside.
Lee - you and I aren't standing outside a shop for twelve hours a day selling flowers or paying £40,000 rent each year for the privilege of running a business in Sydenham Road. Drawing up plans telling people who have traded successfully on the high street for ten years how their shops should be designed isn't going to go down too well!
Many high street shopkeepers feel (and they are wrong) that all the local population want them to do is pile it high and sell it cheap and most are very successful at doing just that. Tell the owner of the bottom pound shop that his business is unattractive and could be better designed isn't really going to wash, particularly if you try this just as he steps into his large Mercedes parked at the bottom of Princethorpe Road just after closing time. He's likely to look at you in total puzzlement. His business is a total success in his eyes - it's making piles on money.
We also need to bear in mind that there is price-resistance at a pretty high level even among the better off in this community. What about the guy on a separate thread who was having a business meeting with a colleague and complained about the price of a cup of tea in the BMC at £1.50. I must remember to ask him what businesses he is in and steer clear of that line of work for the remainder of my career!
It is ineffective and patronising to go in for personal and specific attacks on many of the "low-level" businesses in the high street on this website. The owners aren't going to read it and, if they do, won't give a monkeys. This is why I will never criticise specific businesses and shop owners on this website as you and others are doing, sometimes in highly personal but always in patronising terms. Of course I want a more diverse high street but you ain't going to achieve it by ranting, sneering or by imposing standards from outside.
There will be more info on the £2m which will hopefully be spent on the high street by TfL at next month's Sydenham Road regeneration meeting -Thursday December 6, 7pm at the Naborhood Centre, next to the post office - all are welcome. Yes, it does follow on from the Living Streets exercise and at the December meeting the urban designers will be presenting some of their ideas which will then be out for consultation. I don't think there is a weblink as yet.
Ok, I want to nip this in the bud right now.
1. I never had any intention to patronise anyone and I don't recall making any personal attacks on anyone.
2. In these forums it is possible to miss-understand the tone of voice of a posting, a common problem in forums of this type.
3. My previous posting was just an idea, similar to a make over show, it was not an order or final proposal. I work in design, this is what I do for a living. I genuinely believe that it makes a difference, blimey, I certainly don't work unpaid overtime for the money!. My intention was never to say 'this is what you have to do' but 'this is what you could do' and work with the businesses. Sometimes businssess large and small need some help to make the most of themselves, otherwise people like me would be in different employment! Sometimes they don't, sometimes they really don't need any help.
It is true, I don't live in Sydenham (yet) so I am an outsider. I really like Sydenham, the atmosphere, the people and how people have a passion for the area which is why I am trying to move here. My intention was never to patronise or upset anyone, only to be honest, because like a lot of the people who live in Sydenham, I genuinely do care about the place.
1. I never had any intention to patronise anyone and I don't recall making any personal attacks on anyone.
2. In these forums it is possible to miss-understand the tone of voice of a posting, a common problem in forums of this type.
3. My previous posting was just an idea, similar to a make over show, it was not an order or final proposal. I work in design, this is what I do for a living. I genuinely believe that it makes a difference, blimey, I certainly don't work unpaid overtime for the money!. My intention was never to say 'this is what you have to do' but 'this is what you could do' and work with the businesses. Sometimes businssess large and small need some help to make the most of themselves, otherwise people like me would be in different employment! Sometimes they don't, sometimes they really don't need any help.
It is true, I don't live in Sydenham (yet) so I am an outsider. I really like Sydenham, the atmosphere, the people and how people have a passion for the area which is why I am trying to move here. My intention was never to patronise or upset anyone, only to be honest, because like a lot of the people who live in Sydenham, I genuinely do care about the place.
Hypermarket
Brilliant debate. And a really important one. Shame about the name of the thread though because I don't think it reflects it very well so might not be viewed as much. I think fruit, veg and books (ie, what is outside Kirkdale bookshop) and the DIY shop acutally look fine. It's the rails of clothes and pound shop merchandise which looks a state. But how could you legislate against one and not the other? Thank goodness about the lingerie sign, that was a real state! I don't know if you remember there was a programme on where a whole residential street was made over to try and achieve a more original/cohesive look. Maybe they could make ones for high streets. I'm sure Sydenham's is not the only one that needs help. But the owners would have to cough up some cash, which some would not be keen on I'm sure.
The show had Sarah Beeny in it I think Poppy.
I started doing somethign like this in New Cross before and photographed every shop front and started makign it into a montage before realizeing it's actually a huge amount of work to do on your own! I had some discussion with Lewisham council who were intially interested. The original idea was to try to get lewisham council to impose some sort of guildelines for shop fronts, but it appears Lewisham council have this, but absolutly no-one seems to know about it (please correct me if i am wrong on this!).
Again, it's not to tell anyone what to do, just what they could do. The better the high street looks, the more people will shop there, the better all the shops do. I have seen high street die out before where I used to live in Devon. As I am sure they already know, small businessess have to work incredibly hard to fight off the big chains and rising rents.
As a portion of the high street is now part of the conservation area there are going to be stricter limitations on what you can or can't do anyway.
I started doing somethign like this in New Cross before and photographed every shop front and started makign it into a montage before realizeing it's actually a huge amount of work to do on your own! I had some discussion with Lewisham council who were intially interested. The original idea was to try to get lewisham council to impose some sort of guildelines for shop fronts, but it appears Lewisham council have this, but absolutly no-one seems to know about it (please correct me if i am wrong on this!).
Again, it's not to tell anyone what to do, just what they could do. The better the high street looks, the more people will shop there, the better all the shops do. I have seen high street die out before where I used to live in Devon. As I am sure they already know, small businessess have to work incredibly hard to fight off the big chains and rising rents.
As a portion of the high street is now part of the conservation area there are going to be stricter limitations on what you can or can't do anyway.
hypermarket
I feel very passionately about this too leenewham. I grew up near a high street very similar to Sydenham Road in north London and in the early 90s the then lib dem council decided to build a bypass off it and semi-pedestrianised it. It was a bit traffic choked in rush hour but no worse than anywhere else. What was once a vibrant, orginally Victorian, high street (the oldest in the borough) now feels like a ghetto and a definate no-go area when its dark. It has no supermarkets (there were three at one time!) and they have built a large residential complex right in the middle which is totally out of scale and dominates the area as it comes right up to the pavement in places. Unfortunately the type of people who live in surrounding roads are not very politically active (it has always been relatively poor) so I doubt anyone tried to fight it or the ones that did wouldn't have had enough clout. It's a real shame. It's almost like they wanted to bypass the area altogether as if the people who lived there did not matter. They have tried to tart it up with large planters etc but they just look awful, take up too much space and are rarely full of plants...Sydenham Road really reminds me of that in high street before the bulldozers moved in and I think it is one of the reasons I feel so at home here!
Hi Lee,
I think it sounds like a really good idea! And great that there is a forum like this to kick ideas about.
I think this fits in well with the re-generation of the high street project and the fact that people want to get involved and offer their various expertise for free is really fab. Just think, if the community got involved beyond street-audits and meetings the re-development budget could go even further...
I think there are a lot of creative people in sydenham who could be interest in this (unfortunately I don't have a creative bone in my body - but maybe you can also start on houses after and then I could definately be interested!).
Don't be put off posting.. I think you've got some great ideas and the majority of people will take your postings as intended
I think it sounds like a really good idea! And great that there is a forum like this to kick ideas about.
I think this fits in well with the re-generation of the high street project and the fact that people want to get involved and offer their various expertise for free is really fab. Just think, if the community got involved beyond street-audits and meetings the re-development budget could go even further...
I think there are a lot of creative people in sydenham who could be interest in this (unfortunately I don't have a creative bone in my body - but maybe you can also start on houses after and then I could definately be interested!).
Don't be put off posting.. I think you've got some great ideas and the majority of people will take your postings as intended
I am sorry if I've been rather agressive in my attitude to the idea being put forward by Lee. I think I was just thrown by the opening contribution to this thread by someone who both on this posting and on another is running an unpleasant personal vendetta against a particular shopkeeper. Not content with making vile comments about her appearance he now wants us to boycott and "bin" her business. I don't think the new sign and rails of cheap clothes are appealing, I don't personally shop in Londis/Hypermarket (although I do buy flowers from outside) but this isn't an approach which will get us anywhere.
It appears to me that the idea which Lee has put forward could be the catalyst to setting new standards for shop fronts and signage. Lewisham already has a very detailed list of recommendations for shop fronts which includes design, type size, the use of "open" rather than "closed" shutters etc that we could print and circulate through the local traders organisation. This could include the obligations for shops under the new Conservation Area. The annual locality fund (for use in local high street improvements) is £10,000 - perhaps we could acquire some of this to mount an exhibition. (The recent exhibition of trader pics was financed in this way.) I know it sounds corny but what about an ST annual shop front award for the best new shop exterior?
All I think we need to do is to encourage and help some shopkeepers to set new standards. Going down the road of boycotts or vilification won't get anywhere.
It appears to me that the idea which Lee has put forward could be the catalyst to setting new standards for shop fronts and signage. Lewisham already has a very detailed list of recommendations for shop fronts which includes design, type size, the use of "open" rather than "closed" shutters etc that we could print and circulate through the local traders organisation. This could include the obligations for shops under the new Conservation Area. The annual locality fund (for use in local high street improvements) is £10,000 - perhaps we could acquire some of this to mount an exhibition. (The recent exhibition of trader pics was financed in this way.) I know it sounds corny but what about an ST annual shop front award for the best new shop exterior?
All I think we need to do is to encourage and help some shopkeepers to set new standards. Going down the road of boycotts or vilification won't get anywhere.
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Wispy Wonder
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 11 Jan 2006 22:13
- Location: Sydenham
Totally agree . The problem with Lewisham council and the shop recommendations is that no-one knows aboutit, and when shops do break guidelines then no-one from Lewisham Council actually enforces anything. They have far more problems to sort out than telling someone off for installing a plastic sign.nasaroc wrote:Lewisham already has a very detailed list of recommendations for shop fronts which includes design, type size, the use of "open" rather than "closed" shutters etc that we could print and circulate through the local traders organisation. This could include the obligations for shops under the new Conservation Area. The annual locality fund (for use in local high street improvements) is £10,000 - perhaps we could acquire some of this to mount an exhibition. (The recent exhibition of trader pics was financed in this way.) I know it sounds corny but what about an ST annual shop front award for the best new shop exterior?
All I think we need to do is to encourage and help some shopkeepers to set new standards. Going down the road of boycotts or vilification won't get anywhere.
That's why I think small businessess often need guidance and inspiration. It's hard anout starting up a nusiness, running it and making money while often competing against players like Tesco etc.
I like the idea of having competitions etc, but there seems to be a lot of VERY strong feeling about the High Street which is invaluable for attracting local businessess to the area. Research is a very expensive thing to carry out but can prove invaluable in helping shape local businesssess. Brockley now has 2 Deli's (one called Dandilion Blue & degustation) and a fantastic little Independant coffee shop (The Broca) which were helped by feedback from forums just like this. One thing locals said was that they wanted them to look lik e alocal asset, and they do. The owners used the forums and listened to what people had to say.