Breast is best?

[Annie.]

Should woman be "paid" to breast feed their children?
There is a trial to give " vouchers" to woman who breast feed.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[michael]

Such trials may or may not work, that is the purpose of a trial - to find out if it has any positive impact. Perhaps we should judge the scheme based on the trial, rather than pre-judging the results?

The areas have been chosen because they have such low breastfeeding rates. On average just one in four mothers are breastfeeding by the six- to eight-week mark compared with a national average of 55%.

The other thing it does is to give more publicity to encourage new mothers to breast feed, where possible. That can't be a bad thing.

[Annie.]

It should be a natural response to wanting the best for your child,
also a bit unfair on mothers who for certain medical reasons cannot breast feed.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[leenewham]

I disagree with this (and agree with Annie).

What is needed is proper support and information. Having properly trained lactation consultants would help a great deal.

At present, information given by NHS staff, especially after care about breast feeding in the NHS isn't as good as it should be. Some women can breast feed, some can partially breast feed but it's difficult and they don't produce enough milk, some women can't breast feed. Diagnosing problems, offering support and advice HAS be be strengthened. What we have experiences has been, at best poor.

Offering financial incentives without solving the problems won't change anything and as such will be a waste of money. Trial or no trial.

If any woman is having problems, they should refer them to a professional lactation consultant as soon as possible.

The NHS pays Bounty £90k a year to distribute child benefit forms in a pack Bounty give away for free as a bit of self Promotion (it's pretty useless to be honest) in hospital although we didn't' get any child benefit form in ours.

So that didn't work either.

[michael]

It should be a natural response to wanting the best for your child,
also a bit unfair on mothers who for certain medical reasons cannot breast feed.

Those may or may not be the conclusions of a trial.

But one has to look at why this is necessary at this time: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... l-nhs-cuts

The number of new mothers attempting to breastfeed has fallen in England for the first time in almost a decade.
New figures suggest that 5,700 fewer women initiated breastfeeding with their child in 2012-13 than the year before.
...
In 2011 the coalition scrapped funding for National Breastfeeding Awareness Week, which has been promoting the acceptance of breastfeeding since 1993. The RCM also says there is a shortage of 5,000 midwives and reports that the NHS is cutting back on antenatal and postnatal care as its budget is squeezed. It also laments the scrapping of infant feeding co-ordinators, who had been encouraging breastfeeding in those parts of the country with the lowest uptake.

It would appear that the government has already had a negative impact on breastfeeding take-up, so they are trying to find cheap solutions. Whether bribery works or not is something worth testing, as it has been with quitting smoking, getting married, and other behavioural choices.

Academically interesting as these trials might be, perhaps the government will also consider reintroducing the schemes they scrapped over the last couple of years?

[Rachael]

You're all getting a bit ahead of yourselves. There isn't a trial scheme in operation. All the researchers are doing at this stage is asking women what they think of the scheme, and whether it appears like bribery (bad) or incentive (good). There's a good chance this will never happen.

Apart from anything, it would be nigh on impossible to make sure there's no cheating. And what happens if you really, really try but it just doesn't work out for you? Do you give the money back? I just can't see how it would work logistically.

I agree with Lee that what is needed is support and information. Many mothers give up because no one tells them that it can be difficult at the beginning, but that overcoming the difficulties are worth it. In the short term, when the baby is tiny and waking up during the night, a bottle seems like a easier option, especially as it means someone else can feed the baby when all you want to do is sleep. But wait a month or so and the breastfeeding mother can trip out the door with her baby and on-board sterile milk, while the mother with the bottle-fed baby has all sorts of paraphernalia to deal with, and has to keep the milk cold, then get it warmed. Moreover breast-feeding costs diddly-squat. I exclusively breast-fed both of mine until six months. A four months they were able to drink water from a sippy cup, so when I weaned them at six months, they went straight to that. They never had a bottle of any description because we just didn't need it. When breastfeeding goes well (as it did for me) it makes life easier, not harder. That's the message that needs to be got out.

[leenewham]

Totally agree Rachael.

Woman have to go through so much before, during and after birth. There is pressure to breast feed to the point that it almost victimises women who don't, by choice of otherwise. It's not for everyone, it works for some, it doesn't for others.

The best incentive is support and understanding. Not cold hard cash. Not everything in life is about money.

Fix the problems first.

[michael]

You're all getting a bit ahead of yourselves. There isn't a trial scheme in operation. All the researchers are doing at this stage is asking women what they think of the scheme, and whether it appears like bribery (bad) or incentive (good). There's a good chance this will never happen.

My understanding from the article on the BBC is that the pilot scheme will begin soon (and run until March). Such a pilot is important if there is to be evidence based policy making. If it proves to be ineffective then it will not be rolled out to more areas.

The pilot scheme is being targeted at deprived areas of South Yorkshire and Derbyshire and funded through a collaboration between government and the medical research sector.

A third area is expected soon with the plan to trial it on 130 women who have babies from now until March.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24900650

In Lewisham support for breastfeeding mothers is available in a number of locations: http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/s ... ocals.aspx and they do provide a very good service (or so I'm told).

[Rachael]

If you play the video at the top of that page, michael, the researcher clearly says they are at the 'feasibility' stage, working out if it can be done. She said exactly the same on the radio this morning. It's very much still at the 'what if' stage of planning. Yes, they have identified areas where it might be used, but they are nowhere near actually implementing the scheme.

The tone of the BBC report on that web page is misleading.

[mosy]

I have no idea whether the financial incentive will work because, as it is framed, it says "to breastfeed for six months". Many healthy hungry-nosed children are on solids before then, four or even three months, and would drain a mum dry long before six months, even though milk will keep being generated if regularly taken. Working mums are hardly sitting around all day drinking fluids, eating healthy foods etc in order to be able to keep their milk going. So, the trial might work as an incentive at the outset but I'd say it was an empty scam if it's only paid if six months is achieved, though it did say it relied on "honest conversations".

Leenewham, I agree with you in some ways - as in my day there was huge, dare I say unrelenting, pressure from a matronly "adviser" which frankly I think was pointless as either one wants to anyway or doesn't/can't. The biggest incentive for me was knowing that mum's milk gives antibodies against whatever; also that a "proof" of "best" was that mother's milk was digestible being designed for the purpose and almost wholly absorbed. Please read as evidenced by almost clean nappies versus the veritable lava flow from bottled milk which in effect is waste and logically the small body must have worked very hard to get nutrients before disposing of the rest.

Why not a payment upfront, or staged payments, which would make more sense to me as it's at the outset when highest costs occur. Only after six months? Do they really think that is realistically likely ever to be paid out? Probably not - which could be why "they" are happy to offer it - no such thing as a free lunch.

[Annie.]

I think more support would be better, maybe safe clean even private areas in shops or wherever where woman can feel safe and welcome to breast feed as a natural process could help with the concept of breast is best.

I was in sava center recently, a woman asked a member of staff if there was anywhere she could breast feed her obviously new born baby, she was directed to the woman's loos! Not the shops fault I guess but more society's who seem to find it all a nuisance.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[mosy]

Quote "I was in sava center recently, a woman asked a member of staff if there was anywhere she could breast feed her obviously new born baby, she was directed to the woman's loos! Not the shops fault I guess but more society's who seem to find it all a nuisance." endquote

Great! We had to express our milk (like a human version of milking a cow) into a bottle to take with us. Sounds easy but can be painful and difficult - and there is a problem that once expressed bottled milk has been suckled on, it should not be offered again as germs will have arrived (like double dipping of spoons).

Perhaps newborns are another reason why six months is stupid for an incentive payment as people perceive newborns differently from a baby who'll soon be a toddler - can't imagine asking to feed one at six months "in public".

There definitely should be a clean area available in stores that big. Maybe no-one's asked for one? Activists unite?

[leenewham]

Ikea have notices saying that they welcome mothers to breastfeed and even have an area with a screen that offers privacy if people want it.

It works. It would be great if local cafes took note. Much research for high street businesses has been done by the big brands but no-one seems to do any research before opening a business these days…anyway…I digress.

There are support groups Michael, but when your baby is born, when the health visitor comes around, when you go to check your babies weight, you need proper advice THEN. We got different advice, often conflicting advice from pretty much everyone we saw. Some of the Lewisham heath visitors were awful. Perhaps we were unlucky.

The WHO (World Health Organisation) recommends continued breast feeding for 2 years+.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/exc ... eeding/en/

When I was born, the doctors MADE my mum take pills to dry up her milk so I could only be bottle fed.The doctor split the ward in 2. Half breast fed, half bottle fed only. No choice. No say. It all depended what bed you were in. At night they would watch the mice run across the floor. The NHS has come a long easy since the early 1970's!

[JRobinson]

we're doing antenatal clases at the moment, and we've been informed that very few women can't breastfeed.
so that means that most can, and it's a very large proportion too. There are several issues, but with practice, and patience these can generally usually be overcome, and breast feeding gets easier the more you practice. Normally any pain, or lack of milk is to do with a slightly bad position, and with someone watching, and giving advice, might turn an OK feed into a great feed, or a slighly painful one into a perfectly ok one.
once you get into a routine, the milk is supplied to demand, so if you decide after a few months, to only breastfeed once, in the morning, then the milk supply drops to this level, if you decide to breast feed four times a day, and the baby is drinking lots, then the milk flow will continue to supply this.
According to WHO, the average age across the globe that children stop breastfeeding is 4.2 years old. Mostly to do with developing countries not having clean water, so children get their liquid from breast milk.

[michael]

Offering financial incentives without solving the problems won't change anything and as such will be a waste of money. Trial or no trial.

You won't like this research either:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24821383
"Would $4,000 make poor children cleverer?"

[mosy]

@ JRobinson et al: Can't argue with the advice but hopefully they tell you that newborns get hungry a lot more often than four times a day Mum can be exhausted - on the go all day and up all night - and it can take a toll on their health as babies "are parasites and will take what they need" (told to me by a nurse who mentioned calcium depletion for example).

Suggest you ask about babies getting thirsty, as demanding a feed isn't always due to hunger. Boiled water (recommended) got me nowhere but a mild fennel one worked (Robinson's baby powdered drink IIRC). I wish you and the Missus good luck. Are you on a parenting forum? You should be, as I don't doubt what you're being told but as I said, they would say that wouldn't they?

Or, dig your heels in as an experiment, tell them the Missus doesn't want to breastfeed and wait to be bombarded and pinned to the ground - and offered the monetary incentive?

[JRobinson]

hmmm interesting, but from my point of view - all mammals breastfeed, the vast majority don't have a choice of formula milk. mothers milk includes antibodies to all sorts of illnesses.
I don't know what goes into formula milk, I only have the information on the packaging to go by, which may or may not be accurate.

I think I'll stick with persuading MrsR to go with breast feeding, not that she needs much persuasion at the moment.

[SepticSkeptic]

It was quite interesting listening to a health visitor from the area where the trial is proposed. In the affluent areas the majority of mothers breastfeed. The less well off areas only around 1 in 5 do. The new mothers' parents didn't breastfeed and no expectation that they would.... Hmmm.

My experience is that the NCT brigade, middle class, older, well educated high achieving women put a lot of pressure on themselves and each other. Several I know continued to feed through the most terrible pain, bleeding and cracked nipples and massive anxiety over babies who constantly seemed hungry.
They should have stopped but carried on because of the guilt of doing the best for their child.
Any minor strengthening of immune system completely outweighed by the stress to mother (and father!)

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Annie.]

I find it odd that well off mothers should breast feed more than less well off mothers according to you.
Surely economically it is cheaper to breast feed? Therefore, less well off mothers would benefit economically as well as the child physically?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[SepticSkeptic]

Education init.
Financial aspect is a no brainer.
So its all left for speculation and we can all apply our own prejudices.
Possibly younger - Breasts only as sexual object especially If you read The Sun?
Worried about saggy boobs when older..

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]