Water leak on Silverdale

[Tim Lund]

I'm sure this

has been a problem for more than 20 days, so I'm putting down a marker here

and contacting Thames Water and their regulators for comments.

On their web site they list EIGHT different regulators, but I'm starting with

• Ofwat - which seems the main one, and is responsible for Thames Water targets
• Environmental Health Officers - because they are part of LB Lewisham, and will have a concern for the local environment; and
• the Consumer Council for Water - which hardly anyone has heard of, but were incredibly helpful when my allotments had a problem with a water leak (not Thames Water's fault then, as it happens)

[Tim Lund]

Just had a calll from Thames Water on this, to say that the problem had been identified as coming from the adjoining property - not sure if this would still be Lewisham Homes or a housing association. The problem at my allotments was also the responsibility of a neighbouring housing association, and it took a lot of effort to get them to take it seriously!

Update - it's Lewisham Homes according to the signage.

[Tim Lund]

Update - Lewisham Homes weren't initially sure that they owned the property concerned, but are now sending down a plumber. Meanwhile Thames Water have emailed to say:

We have looked into this leak and found that it is coming from within a property boundary along Silverdale road. This is the responsibility of the property owners.

We will contact them to make sure this leak is resolved as quickly as possible.

[mosy]

I noticed it was trickling away to itself on Sunday and several bits of wet pavement that looked like run-offs from the property. I guess the water company won't be too fussed about getting it sorted if the run-off is being metered, so being chargeable usage Poor show though after all these days unless some sort of legal dispute is going on... The water company changed the boundaries of responsibility two or three years back as I recall putting the onus for their pipes onto the landowner within the perimeter of a property so whoever dreamed that up will be sleeping easy methinks... Although notice was given, I doubt anyone considered the implication if the pipes failed, or whether objecting would have made any difference. Fact is, the leak will have to be stopped sooner or later... Edit PS: I guess if Lewisham Homes, whatever cost will go on council tax? All good stuff eh?

[Tim Lund]

I'm told Lewisham Environmental Health are aware of this problem and are liaising with Thames Water.

Apart from getting it sorted out, what interests me about this is how such problems could be handled most effectively. I suspect it is quite difficult technically - maybe a pipe quite deep down, but no one quite knows where, because maps weren't kept back when the area was developed, has been fractured thanks to roots of the large trees nearby. If so, it's going to take time and money. How would this best be done?

[JRobinson]

Is this the same leak on the brow of the hill opposite Bishopsthorp Rd? there were cones up on 3/9 to say that Thames water would turn up to do something, and then nothing happened, these cones were then changed to say 23/9 at which time a whole lot of something was done as there was lots of mud on the footway, and a plastic board, presumably over a hole, and then sometime later again the hole was filled in with tarmac, with the leak not fixed, and water still trickling out of the inspection cover.

unbelievable!

[Tim Lund]

Is this the same leak on the brow of the hill opposite Bishopsthorp Rd? there were cones up on 3/9 to say that Thames water would turn up to do something, and then nothing happened, these cones were then changed to say 23/9 at which time a whole lot of something was done as there was lots of mud on the footway, and a plastic board, presumably over a hole, and then sometime later again the hole was filled in with tarmac, with the leak not fixed, and water still trickling out of the inspection cover.

unbelievable!

Basically, yes, although in fact I think there are two leaks, probably from the same stretch of piping, but the one I photographed is further down the hill towards Mayow Park. And thanks for helping me out with those dates - as I wrote in the OP, I'm sure it had been a problem for more than 20 days, but I'd not made a note of it before.

Unbelievable? Not really, because (1) I suspect the problem is technically quite difficult, so no agency is likely to get it fixed within the 20 days Thames Water aim to manage, and (2) the process for establishing whose responsibility it is, and, whoever that is, finding the budget, and dealing with it, doesn't work well.

[mosy]

You'd think that the water company would be expert at finding/fixing leaks bearing in mind how old some the pipes must be that they have to deal with. Maybe they could ask Robert Llewellyn on Ch.5's "How do they do it?" for help? I wonder if it would have been mended sooner if water had been gushing rather than trickling, at least that which is visible on the surface. Being on a slope, it's not the best place to be sodden underneath, thinking landslip/settlement/subsidence. Still, I guess they know that.

[Tim Lund]

You'd think that the water company would be expert at finding/fixing leaks bearing in mind how old some the pipes must be that they have to deal with.

I suspect the water company - Thames Water - probably is as good as anyone at finding and getting them fixed, but if fixing them is the legal responsibility of someone else - e.g. Lewisham Homes - then it will depend on them recognising this, finding the budget to fix it, and then getting the work done. I'm sure some people will jump to blaming Thames Water being privatised, although whether things are better done by the private or public sector is something I take on a case by case basis.

[JRobinson]

Thames Water should fix it anyway, and then work out how and who to get the money back from, if it's someone else's responsibility. That way, Thames Water isn't losing money, purifying water, which is literaly going back down the drain.

[Tim Lund]

I guess Thames Water have various commercial judgement to make, first where it makes sense for them to focus their efforts to repair leaks - this may not be the most significant - and then whether the time and effort spent trying to get their money back from Lewisham Homes is worth any penalty for this size leak. I know if I was a Thames Water manager, with an eye on controlling bad debts, I wouldn't rush to be sorting out other people's problems for them, at my companiy's expense.

[mosy]

I doubt also whether Thames Water have the legal right to invade and start digging up a private residence (council property or otherwise), especially if they've rather cleverly disowned their pipes on private land (I mentioned that they told us their responsibility had changed so only started at the public pavement boundary line). Like Tim Lund says, hard to see how a quick fix resolution will be achieved without prior agreement as to who foots the bill.

[Tim Lund]

Just a quick bump to say this has not gone away



Hoping to hear from Lewisham Environmental Health soon.

Tim

[Tim Lund]

Apparently officers were on site the week before last and judged that the issue lies with Thames Water, who have agreed to send a liaison team down at their earliest convenience, and that repairs would be completed 'next week' - so last week from where we are now.

But clearly not.

[Tim Lund]

Latest installment from Thames Water:

22 November 2013

Our Ref: 33105857

Silverdale

Dear Mr Lund

Thank you for your email and for speaking with me today. I’ll continue to look into the two leaks located along Silverdale and I’ll update you by 29 November again at the latest.

The leak located near the junction of Bishopsthorpe Road has been confirmed as a Customer Side Leak (CSL). This is a leak within the boundary of a property and is the responsibility of the property owner. We are currently trying to resolve this issue.

The leak near the entrance of Mayow Park was repaired on 31 October 2013 but on 4 November 2013 there was still a further leak. We are still investigating this leak but this is also believed to be a CSL to a nearby property.

Thank you for letting us know of this and I’ll update you again next week. I hope this helps. If you need to contact us again regarding this matter, please telephone me

[mosy]

Following your posts on the leak with interest.

There's one at the top end of Silverdale today (Sunday 24th) where it joins Sydenham Road. Can't see a Thames Water phone number for reporting leaks, so will look on their website. It looks like it's coming up through the road tarmac so I guess there could be traffic disruption if they have to dig the road up...

[Tim Lund]

Dear Mr Lund

Thank you for your patience with this.

We are still looking into the leaks found along Silverdale road. Our investigations have been taking longer than expected due to a further leak at the junction of Silverdale and Sydenham Road. The water being wasted from this has been flowing down Silverdale.

We are also liaising with the council to investigate where the water is coming from at the junction of Bishopsthorpe Road as they believe this is not their responsibility. We visited the leak near the entrance of Mayow Park on 19 November 2013 to install a valve on our mains. This is to help us in pinpointing the exact location of where the leak is coming from. We also believe this to be coming from a nearby property.

Due to data protection I’m unable to provide detailed information about these leaks but I’ll update you as best as possible by 17 December 2013 at the latest.

I hope this helps. If you need to contact us again regarding this matter, please telephone

[mosy]

Well, Day 6 now - and counting? - and the top end of Silverdale is still running merrily merrily down the stream. It would seem there's plenty of water flowing for hands to be washed all round. Can't leaks just be stopped soonest and argue about it afterwards? The cost is gonna land on us (users) one way or another and the longer it's drawn out, the higher the costs. The only reason for procrastinating is - dunno, I'm stumped. Is there a good reason?

[Tim Lund]

Dear Cllr:

I had a call yesterday from Lewisham Homes - no follow up email yet - but was told that, with my having cc'd you in now, something would be sent to you.

It seems that we have Thames Water visiting from time to time and concluding that it is not their responsibility, and Lewisham Council / Homes visiting other times and concluding that it is not their responsibility either. How do we progress from here? Is there any one with the authority to ask the two sides to submit the evidence on which they make their claims, judge which is right, and then require the work to be done? Or do we just watch expensively treated water go to waste, pay water bills higher that would otherwise be the case, wait for freezing weather and someone to fall over and our infrastructure to decay further?

Tim

cc.

Thames Water,
Lewisham Environmental Health
Lewisham Homes

[Tim Lund]

Lewisham Environmental Health are sounding very confident:

Good afternoon all,

As you will be aware Thames water were due to attend to repair leak yesterday evening. Unfortunately Public Health and Nuisance officers attended site earlier today to find no change in the situation.

After contacting Thames water they advised they had been on site but repaired a leak further down the road. This is particularly disappointing considering the considerable number of times officers have spoken to them ( we have at least 5 separate reference numbers) and the detailed description that had been provided on numerous occasions.

We have since raised this with Thames Water who have agreed to meet an officer on site tomorrow.

I will update you further following this meeting

I am now going to see if any others of Thames Water's eight regulators, as mentioned in the OP, have a view on them apparently systematically misleading me and the wider public.