Cashless-only buses - TfL consultation

[Eagle]

Yes Annie
My sympathy with the drivers.
Most passengers are fine , polite , speak to and thank the driver when exiting,
However there is a very unsavoury minority.

I cannot see why anybody would want to pay by cash when about twice the cost.

[marymck]

In which case passengers must be in constant danger. Yet expected stand there unprotected by security screens and wave our Cashless credit cards about.

Don't see why - the people in danger will be the ones known to have cash on them - i.e. the drivers.

I don't think they'll remove the screens when the drivers stop taking fares.

Why wouldn't they? It will save TfL money on any new bus designs.

They will keep the screens because the unions will want to continue to protect their drivers. And quite right too. Nothing to do with the small amount of cash they carry. Probably be more trouble if people can't pay, especially on the night buses.

I, and I'm sure most bus users, carry valuables - including mobile phone and credit cards. I think you'll find most muggers would know that.

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[Tim Lund]

Tim, I admit I try not to use public transport, however if I have the misfortune of having to, some of the Dross that get on the bus would have a field day if the Drivers no longer had screens, Do you use the bus a lot?

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A fair bit, since I don't own a car.

[Tim Lund]

I, and I'm sure most bus users, carry valuables - including mobile phone and credit cards. I think you'll find most muggers would know that.

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Credit cards and mobiles are far less attractive to muggers than cash, and a driver who is obliged to carry cash is the only obvious target on a bus.

[marymck]

Thanks for that Rod. That's very interesting.

I see also 466 violent offences on buses. And 5,950 "disturbances." And of course they are just the incidents that bus drivers reported. I often travel on the night bus and some drivers do ignore what's going on. Still, I would never travel on the top deck at night, as it's good to be in yelling distance should I need help!

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[Tim Lund]

Thanks also Rod, although that doesn't say anything one way of the other about going cashless and crime. But it does say:

Public transport in London continues to be a relatively safe and low crime environment. Currently, over ten million passengers travel on the TfL’s public transport services each day with very few of them ever experiencing or witnessing crime. Official figures from the MPS and the BTP show further reductions in levels of crime on the transport network despite increasing passenger numbers. The risk of becoming a victim of crime is falling.

The levels of bus-related crime in the first quarter of 2012/13 (April 2012–June 2012) were 10.1% lower than in 2011/12 and the rate of crime for the bus network has fallen to 8.7 crimes per million passenger journeys (from 9.8 in the first quarter of 2011/12). Crime on LU/DLR has also fallen, 6.7% lower during the first quarter of 2012/13 compared to 2011/12 with the rate also falling to 9.7 crimes per million passenger journeys (from 11.0 in the first quarter of 2011/12).

These reductions in crime have been driven by a range of initiatives undertaken by TfL in partnership with the police forces in London. TfL’s significant investment in transport policing and commitment to improving safety and security has ensured the system remains a low crime environment.

If you look at the FAQs linked to from the actual consultation document in the OP, there is this:

1.8 Have you considered the crime and disorder impacts?

TfL has considered the crime and disorder impacts. With fewer cash journeys being made since the introduction of Oyster, one benefit has been the reduction of theft/robbery of cash from bus drivers. The move towards cashless operation will remove that crime risk altogether and improve personal safety.
One issue involves the potential for vulnerable people without either a valid Oyster card or contactless payment card being denied access to travel and then left at possible risk of crime. Such circumstances are however covered by existing operational processes which safeguard vulnerable people from this possibility.

Overall, I think Transport for London is a great example of successful public service, and I don't think it's fair to say they have poor systems or are incompetent. That said, I'm posting here a picture of where a system was failing when I took a bus recently



but actually it illustrates part of the history of TfL's commitment to making bus travel better. I remember Countdown being brought in, and the enthusiasm of TfL people for it. It was a considerable investment, but made without foreknowledge of the coming on smartphones, with apps which could give far more information to customers. The response of TfL, however, was to embrace the new technology, and pioneer the open distribution of data, letting others develop those apps. In this, TfL is far better than other public sector organisations - thinking here of Ordnance Survey. But as a public service, TfL does not just walk away from Countdown, even it is no longer the future. It's there, and one of many ways in which this good public service provider doesn't just service the needs of the better off members of society, with their / our smart phones.

[alywin]

The cashless fare is £1 cheaper than cash - So, far all of these poor people who might not be able to afford a £5 deposit for an Oyster card. I would ask, how can they afford not to get one?

Because, as I indicated above, they may not be able to put together sufficient cash at one time to pay for the deposit and do a minimum top-up. Sure, they could sacrifice 3 bus trips and put the money towards buying the card, but suppose all those bus trips are vital and cover a distance which is too far to be walked (as I suspect they are in a number of the cases)?

[hairybuddha]

Alywin - I'm sure there are some people in that situation. But bear in mind that cash fares are less than 1% of all bus users. How many of that 1% do you suppose is so poor that they can't afford a deposit for an Oyster? 2 in 10, 3 in 10? So do you want TFL to reject a scheme that can make £24 million of efficiencies to accommodate 0.3% of it's users?

[Eagle]

I have noticed in travelling on ,many buses the bigest problem with people with no cards is no change.

Usually they offer a 10 or 20 note and the driver has no change and has to decide whether to ask them to depart or travel free.

Maybe cash could be accepted if correct, or no change given

[marymck]

Yes, I saw yet another example of this yesterday. An elderly oriental gentleman tried to pay with a ten pound note. He clearly couldn't understand why he was being turned off the bus and was visibly upset.

This was the bus's first stop, so surely the bus driver had a change kitty?

I tried to get through to pay for him, but was trapped at the back of the bus. What really saddened me though (apart from the sight of an old man standing on the pavement and staring at the bus in bewilderment as it pulled away), was the aggressive attitude of many of the other passengers. The whole incident must have lasted no more than two minutes, but you'd have thought their SO important time was being squandered.

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[Eagle]

I know Mary , some peoples time is so important.

Wonder why the elderly gent did not have a freedom card ?

I think they are given very little change so as to discourage cash sales.

I have seen drivers often wave people on in that circumstance. Guess up to the driver. Cannot be a rule otherwise everyone would wave 20.00 note and get on free.

One thing that can wind , even me , up is people who wait until they board the bus to search for their card despite the fact they have been standing for ages at the bus stop.

[marymck]

I think this gentleman was a visitor from China. He didn't have much English. I was treated with much more courtesy when using public transport in China. And my Cantonese is zero! I guess he was expecting the same level of respect and understanding in England.

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[Eagle]

I except if he was a tourist he should have been given more leeway and respect.

[Tim Lund]

The cashless fare is £1 cheaper than cash - So, far all of these poor people who might not be able to afford a £5 deposit for an Oyster card. I would ask, how can they afford not to get one?

Because, as I indicated above, they may not be able to put together sufficient cash at one time to pay for the deposit and do a minimum top-up. Sure, they could sacrifice 3 bus trips and put the money towards buying the card, but suppose all those bus trips are vital and cover a distance which is too far to be walked (as I suspect they are in a number of the cases)?

Alywin - I'm sure there are some people in that situation. But bear in mind that cash fares are less than 1% of all bus users. How many of that 1% do you suppose is so poor that they can't afford a deposit for an Oyster? 2 in 10, 3 in 10? So do you want TFL to reject a scheme that can make £24 million of efficiencies to accommodate 0.3% of its users?

It's always hard arguing from numbers, because most people respond to stories, such as Alywin's about the desperately poor, or Mary's baffled Chinese visitor. But if TfL's numbers are to be believed, there have to be other stories on the other side to suggest why cashless buses might be a good idea. They will be about buses becoming a better service, and getting better used - which is what is happening. Although it will be inconvenient when people want to use cash, the less cash there is around, the less crime and associated violence there will be on the buses, and the better an experience it will be for all. I still remember the first time I tried getting on a bus - in Holborn, as it happens - and being told I couldn't because it was cashless, and feeling somewhat resentful. I'm sure that Chines tourist felt much the same, but would also adjust to how things were done in another country, as I would, I hope, if I found something initially baffling traveling in China.

The most important 'stories on the other side' are also literally non-stories - they are the stories of drivers and passengers not getting attacked because of the general decrease in crime, so inevitably go under reported

[alywin]

I think, if TfL do press ahead with this, that their drivers will have to use a lot more discretion (compassion?) than they do at present. Suppose you get mugged late at night, and your wallet/handbag with your Oystercard *and* contactless payment card (if you have such - they are still few and far between, as far as I can see) is stolen. How are you supposed to get home? We've already had cases of women being seriously assaulted - or even worse? - because the bus driver's turned them away because they didn't have their bus fare.

Bus drivers are, I believe, entitled to use their discretion and take people's addresses, but if that becomes more widespread wouldn't it actually be quicker simply to take cash rather than make people fill in a form or whatever it is they do?

[Tim Lund]

I think, if TfL do press ahead with this, that their drivers will have to use a lot more discretion (compassion?) than they do at present. Suppose you get mugged late at night, and your wallet/handbag with your Oystercard *and* contactless payment card (if you have such - they are still few and far between, as far as I can see) is stolen. How are you supposed to get home? We've already had cases of women being seriously assaulted - or even worse? - because the bus driver's turned them away because they didn't have their bus fare.

Bus drivers are, I believe, entitled to use their discretion and take people's addresses, but if that becomes more widespread wouldn't it actually be quicker simply to take cash rather than make people fill in a form or whatever it is they do?

I'm sure TfL understand this. As I quoted from their consultation document before:

One issue involves the potential for vulnerable people without either a valid Oyster card or contactless payment card being denied access to travel and then left at possible risk of crime. Such circumstances are however covered by existing operational processes which safeguard vulnerable people from this possibility.

Drivers are critical to making buses safer, and I think most drivers are both sensible and sensitive. Obviously there will be times when drivers are tired, or passengers particularly provoking, where management might have to get involved. Not the sort of thing I'd welcome having to deal with myself, but some one will need to. To bring it back to the issue of going cashless, I've no doubt that having less cash around will reduce the number of incidents overall, and help deliver a better service.

[Eagle]

I travel on average 3 buses a day and on the whole the service from the driver is excellent.

I have noted on a number of occasions people try to board explaining they have lost their card or it has been stolen. Often the driver gives them the benefit of the doubt and often not.

I am sure many times the people without tickets are genuine , and on many occasions not.
It is a shame when someone who has genuinely lost their card and has no money cannot board the bus , but it is equally a shame and shocking when people never had a ticket and use the excuse all the time.

Taking cash can hold the bus up a lot. Especially when the passenger does not have the correct change.

I think a great compromise should be cash only accepted if correct or no change expected.

[Eagle]

True

Even I get wound up by people presenting cards for small transactions. Cup of coffee for instance.

Thank fully Kente still accept cash and have not seen anyone pay by card,

[Manwithaview1]

There is another alternative to cashless buses and drivers with no change etc.

CONDUCTORS.

[Eagle]

MWAV

Nice idea but who would pay for all the conductors???

Surely the card system works very well for 98% plus of the travelling population.