Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

[Eagle]

Mary
Please carry on your good work. Ignore any sarcastic comments.

Too be honest I think The W may have a better case for survival than the infamous Greyhound. Problem the W does not appear to have the great and good of The Sydenham Society ( regular pubgoers all of them ) behind it.

You make many valid points. Certainly do not want another supermarket.

I assume when the current owners purchased the property, probably from Wetherspoon , they were aware it was a Pub and change of use would not be easy.

[marymck]

Mary
Please carry on your good work. Ignore any sarcastic comments.

Too be honest I think The W may have a better case for survival than the infamous Greyhound. Problem the W does not appear to have the great and good of The Sydenham Society ( regular pubgoers all of them ) behind it.

You make many valid points. Certainly do not want another supermarket.

I assume when the current owners purchased the property, probably from Wetherspoon , they were aware it was a Pub and change of use would not be easy.

Thanks Eagle. I find it actually quite cruel to laugh at people who will be thrown out of work, and at disabled people who will lose the only pub they can go to. I can't understand how people get their kicks from others misfortune. Or why they want to see the big corporate supermarkets drive out small independent traders. All good comfort for the multi millionaire property developers and massive corporates though. Maybe they're shareholders.

Actually the SydSoc has been very supportive of the Windmill and of the campaign to help it remain a pub. Remember too that the Portas Pilot film was screened there, and arts and Christmas events held there, When we were told that Sainsburys had pulled out, we started right away thinking what we could do to help and events we could hold there.

BTW I understand a mum's group were thinking about approaching the Windmill about holding coffee mornings there. But I think they got put off by the threatened closure.

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[hairybuddha]

Maybe they're shareholders.

Not a shareholder, but I will neither confirm nor deny that I am an estate agent working on behalf of the family

[Eagle]

Mary
Sorry did not know Syd Society involved.

Coffee mornings very positive idea to get more revenue.

Also as a function hall . For meetings , wakes and receptions.

Very best of Luck.

[Nigel]

Mary
Power to your elbow , please do not be deterred by the likes of hairybuddha/biker , he seems to delight in assuming everything is as trivial and slight as he is.
I have seen no argument that shows the Windmill could not grow to become a really nice pub. Plenty of people like it as it is and you obviously value it.
Why anyone should be excited by the arrival of a small ,shoddy supermarket is totally beyond me but trying ( I stress trying) to appear clever or even competent at your expense is a bit pathetic. Good luck with your campaign - even if you fail you will have had a damn good shot.
A very good afternoon
Nigel

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[Eagle]

Well said Nigel

I do not think HB would be happy unless The Windmill became a bike lane.

[hairybuddha]

Oh well, looks like I'm on the opposite side of the argument from Eagle. So I must be doing something right.

Don't worry Nigel, I'm under no illusions about the triviality of postings on this forum. They do however occasionally make for very funny reading, yesterday evening being a particularly fine vintage.

[harrym]

As a follow on to my last message, in my wildest dreams the Windmill would be transformed into a light, modern, well designed space that could encorporate a cafe with really good food/coffee/evening drinks and a versatile space which could be used as a gallery or for small independent retailers as an indoor market. Sainsburys is not my no.1 choice. But The Windmill as is is a thoroughly depressing place that will never bring new footfall to the area. If we really want to keep key elements of what does work (accessibility/space available for hire) then we should aim a lot higher than simply maintaining the status quo. It needs somebody with creative vision and really good design to make it appeal across the local demographic - not simply to the customers who use it now.

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[Eagle]

Harry I , and probably Mary , agree that we want some new clients as well as existing ones.

I appreciate not an easy task but could be a great meeting place for the village.

It was not always a dump. I remember nice evenings there a good clientele

Let us give Mary our 100% backing.

[JRobinson]

To Gabriel C - Can you confirm or deny the allegations that you've refused to look after the building properly, that you've underinvested in it, that you've failed to maintain the property to a useable level, and that the current managers are indeed running at a loss?

I'd be interested in hearing your answer to this, and as to why it differs from the views of posters here who appear to be very well informed of the local situation.

[simono]

All the evidence shows that there are simply to many pubs and that those that will close will be the bad ones. Surely it is better to close badly run uneconomic pubs in order to ensure that well run good ones stay open. There are good pubs to suit all tastes in the area many of which are excellent, such as The Dolphin, Dulwich Woodhouse, Golden Lion and for those that want what I would call an old fashioned boozer, The Pavilion (nee Railway).
The pub is going to close, the owner has made that clear. So what is better, a Sainsbury's or a boarded up building? I am afraid in terms of the look and feel of Kirkdale and all of Sydenham what the answer is to that question. There are enough empty premises already and do we need another Greyhound fiasco? Or are the people so obsessed with keeping the pub open going to take it on as a business and lose their money?

[Eagle]

Simon
None of the pubs you mention is that close to the windmill. You miss out its local rivals, The Brick, Fox and Hounds and Talma.

We have already lost The Woodman in that area.

Quite a number of people live in walking distance of The Windmill. It does need to change however. Needs good food and good ale andmaybe in the mornings becoming a coffee shop.

[marymck]

All the evidence shows that there are simply to many pubs and that those that will close will be the bad ones. Surely it is better to close badly run uneconomic pubs in order to ensure that well run good ones stay open. There are good pubs to suit all tastes in the area many of which are excellent, such as The Dolphin, Dulwich Woodhouse, Golden Lion and for those that want what I would call an old fashioned boozer, The Pavilion (nee Railway).
The pub is going to close, the owner has made that clear. So what is better, a Sainsbury's or a boarded up building? I am afraid in terms of the look and feel of Kirkdale and all of Sydenham what the answer is to that question. There are enough empty premises already and do we need another Greyhound fiasco? Or are the people so obsessed with keeping the pub open going to take it on as a business and lose their money?

What is the evidence to which you refer Simono? Please share, and I will ask CAMRA to respond.

Supermarkets target pubs because so many, like the Windmill, are owned by property developers, not interested in running a profitable pub.
Planning rules can make them easy targets, unless councills have backbone.

I have just left a lively and crowded Windmill. when I arrived at four it was full of families. Now the children have gone and it's an all adult clientele. It's hard to imagine how the pub can fail to make a profit. if Mr Christodoulou produces some accounts we might find out more.

BTW Simono, I don't know if the pubs you mention are fully disabled accessible? There are no pubs near upper Kirkdale that are.

I believe the only reason the Windmill would go dark is if the owners did it out of spite. I have had someone express to me their serious interest in taking on a lease.

Of course, as Sainsburys would only be taking on a short lease themselves, and as they are in danger of overkill by opening so many stores in the area, we have no guarantee they would lease for long anyway - especially if they manage to drive Tesco out - and it would then go dark having been comprehensively trashed as a pub.

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[marymck]

Oh I almost forgot my reason for logging on! Which is to say that the long awaited yellow planning notices went up at 16.20 hrs today. The date given on the notices for receipt of objections is 12th September. Yesterday! Needless to say, SydSoc is requesting an extension!

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[marymck]

Simon
None of the pubs you mention is that close to the windmill. You miss out its local rivals, The Brick, Fox and Hounds and Talma.

We have already lost The Woodman in that area.

Quite a number of people live in walking distance of The Windmill. It does need to change however. Needs good food and good ale andmaybe in the mornings becoming a coffee shop.

Agreed Eagle. I believe some investment would make all the difference and then really good things can happen.

I know nothing about beer, but Neil from CAMRA likes the beer there. I think it was called speckled hen, but I'm not sure, I might have got the name completely wrong. (I do tend to tune out when people talk about beer. Sorry Neil.)

I can say the wine is nice and the soft drinks very cheap, making it especially good value for families.

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[gillyjp]

Oh I almost forgot my reason for logging on! Which is to say that the long awaited yellow planning notices went up at 16.20 hrs today. The date given on the notices for receipt of objections is 12th September. Yesterday! Needless to say, SydSoc is requesting an extension!

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Oh goodness - the SydSoc are involved - heavens preserve us. Just look what happened when they got involved with the Greyhound. I predicate another derelict pub on the cards then.

[leenewham]

The Greyhound is not the Sydenham Society's Fault.

The Greyhound is Purelakes Fault, with a bit of LB Lewisham thrown in for the delays in planning consent.

[gillyjp]

They certainly played their part I’m afraid.

Granted Purelake should not have dismantled the Greyhound. Granted LBL were, at best, incompetent in their monitoring of the build. However no point in locking the stable door and all that. It is time people understood that the likelihood of the pub being refurbished now is remote. There is nothing in this in terms of profit for Purelake – so why are they going to rush to do anything? They may have a moral obligation but that cannot be legally enforced and quite frankly they are too busy making money elsewhere to be worrying about rebuilding a pub that is increasingly looking like a Health & Safety liability in the state it is in now. Yes Lewisham took them to court initially over the demolishing of the pub and won. It would be a whole different ball game to try and re-enter legal negotiations in a bid to force them to fulfil their moral obligations.

Believe me, as direct neighbours to the eyesore, we would like nothing more than this to be resolved. We fought long and hard and actually got the flats to be lowered by one storey at the first planning application and other details that were detrimental to the immediate neighbours.

[Eagle]

Please take this thread back to The Windmill and not The Greyhound.

I admit partial responsibility for mentioning in the same post both buildings. Apologies for that.

Good Luck Mary

[Sainsbury's]

Sainsbury’s met the Sydenham Society on 13 September to discuss its plans to open a Sainsbury’s Local on Kirkdale. We are aware that there has been some confusion in recent weeks about whether the plans are going ahead and we thought it would be helpful to share the discussion with you.

We understand from the owners, St Gabriel‘s Properties, that the Windmill has been extensively marketed since 2008, however no interested parties have come forward. During this period, St Gabriel’s Properties have tried to keep it running as a pub. However, recent tenants have not been able to make it a long term or viable business success and they are currently running the pub at a loss, which is not sustainable.

Sainsbury’s will consider all types of properties in the right locations for its stores. We were approached last year by the owner’s property agents and we agreed a lease to occupy the unit. Regardless of whether we are granted planning permission or not, the owners have taken the decision to close the pub by the end of this year.

Sainsbury’s would like to open a convenience shop on Kirkdale and had already considered another site there which was too small, before being approached about the Windmill. Sainsbury’s agreed a 15 year lease with St Gabriel’s Properties in the summer and has at no point tried to conceal its plans. We wrote to the Sydenham Society before submitting the necessary planning applications in July.

Furthermore, Sainsbury’s did put up planning notices outside the site on 31 August after receiving them from Lewisham Council that week. Unfortunately the notices were subsequently taken down without our knowledge; once this was pointed out to us we replaced them.

Sainsbury’s has a good track record of operating its shops responsibly and with respect for its neighbours. From our experience of operating other shops in similar locations, we know that they can help to drive footfall to the benefit of other traders and businesses.

By occupying an otherwise vacant premises, we believe our proposals would benefit the viability of Kirkdale. The shop will provide more choice and a quality offer to local residents, as well as support local communities through our Charity of the Year and Active Kids programmes, invest in high streets and create jobs for local people.