Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

[marymck]

I am sorry to have to report that the celebrations were premature. The Windmill remains under threat.

The owners told a number of people that Sainsbury's had withdrawn all the planning applications, were not proceeding with the conversion and that The Windmill would continue to operate as a pub. Since that statement, I have been trying to get confirmation of the owners' assertions. I am sad to say that Sainsbury's have confirmed that they have NOT withdrawn their planning applications and do intend to continue.

Quite why the owners (St Gabriel Properties Ltd - i.e. the Christodoulou family) would have said Sainsbury's have withdrawn is a matter of speculation. Some may think, with no yellow site notifications displayed and with a deadline of 12th September rapidly approaching, that this was an attempt to silence the objectors.

As of close of play Friday, the required site notices have not yet been displayed. I have therefore requested an extension on the Council's deadline for objections. However, even if this is granted, Sainsbury's might object to any such extension.

We should therefore assume that objections have to reach Lewisham Planning Dept by 12th September.

Sainsbury's have lodged SIX planning applications relating to The Windmill. Here are the links to these ...

DC/13/84358 | Alterations to the front elevation of 125-131 Kirkdale SE26, including the installation of a new shopfront and customer entrance door. | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70972

DC/13/84359 | The construction of a two storey extension to the rear of 125-131 Kirkdale SE26, to accommodate goods lift and emergency stairs. | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70973

DC/13/84360 | The installation of plant equipment on the roof of 125-131 Kirkdale SE26 | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70974

DC/13/84356 | The installation of an ATM to the shopfront of 125-131 Kirkdale SE26 | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70970

DC/13/84357 | The display of two internally-illuminated fascia signs, one externally-illuminated projecting sign and one non-illuminated panel sign at 125-131 Kirkdale SE26. | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70971

DC/13/84355 | An application submitted under Section 73 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 for minor material amendment in connection with the variation of Condition (5) of planning permission DC/99/44839 dated 15 December 1999 in order to allow the hours of operation for the retail unit to be 07.00-23.00 (previously consented hours 08.00-23.00). | 125-131 KIRKDALE, LONDON, SE26 4QJ
http://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online- ... CAPR_70969

[Annie.]

Have they actually bought the site of the Windmill Mary?

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[marymck]

Have they actually bought the site of the Windmill Mary?

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No, Sainsbury's are going to be leasing the site from the Christodoulou family (aka St Gabriel Properties), who I believe will retain the freehold. I believe the Christoudoulous bought The Windmill in 2004. The Christodoulous run a property company; not pubs. In recent years the Windmill has been starved of investment, making it very difficult to run a successful pub. Nevertheless, despite overwhelming odds, the current bar manager and her staff have been doing a great job. I believe the pub is in profit and it's a lively, welcoming and popular venue for people of all ages. It's the only pub in the area with full disabled access toilets, probably one of the reasons why it's so often booked for families holding wakes.

[Annie.]

I don't understand why Wetherspoons gave it up,must admit I only went in a couple of times when it was owned by them.

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[marymck]

I don't understand why Wetherspoons gave it up,must admit I only went in a couple of times when it was owned by them.

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I'm not positive about this Annie, but I think it was because they opened The Capitol.

[Annie.]

Oh, shame, I enjoy wetherspoon style pubs, not to everyone's taste I know but I find them cosy,
I wish you well with your campaign Mary, and I know it might be a bit defeatist of me but if the owners have run the pub down they have done it for a reason, they know they will will get their wish, Sainsburys have probably been after it since the new owners took it over.

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[Eagle]

Mary

Seem to recall Wetherspoon closed both The Windmill and The Bird in Hand shortly after The Capitol got established.

Both mentioned were really too small for the Wetherspoon model.

I agree with Anne, Wetherspoon usually have good beer , no music and acceptable food. You can carry on a good conversation.

[parker]

I wouldn't have said The Windmill was too small a pub for the Wetherspoon model. The William Stanley Wetherspoon in South Norwood is smaller than Kirkdale "Village's" Windmill I'd ideally prefer a Wetherspoons in that spot but very pleased to hear it's not too late for a Sainsbury's Local because the nearby Tesco Express is shit!

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[Robin Orton]

The Bird in Hand was still open the last time I looked - surely Wetherspoons never owned it? And my memory is that the Capitol had been going for some time before Wetherspoons opened the Windmill, let alone closed it.

[parker]

I don't recall The Bird In Hand ever being run by Wetherspoon. The Capitol HAS been run by Wetherspoon ever since the place reopened as a pub. Wetherspoon left The Windmill not long after they opened The Capitol.

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[Robin Orton]

The Capitol, I discover, opened as a Wetherspoons pub in 2001. I still believe that was before The Windmill opened (as a Wetherspoons), although I can't prove it. I remember (I think!) being faintly surprised when The Windmill opened that there would now be two Wetherspoons pubs within a mile of each other.

[parker]

BOTH The Windmill and The Capitol sites were opened as Wetherspoon when they first opened.
I've always wondered why over the years they'd never been interested in The Two Half's site in Sydenham Road.

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[marymck]

Planning permission for The Windmill was granted in 1999. I don't remember offhand the year it actually opened - though I do know it was opened on St Valentine's Day!

I believe Wetherspoon's had been trying to get a change of use for The Capitol from a bingo hall to a pub for some time, so maybe there was some overlap.

The fact remains we WILL lose the biggest venue in the central Kirkdale area if we don't act now. Even if people don't like the pub now (starved of investment in repairs as it has been) then please try to imagine what it could be like with a bit of investment. We need community gathering places. It is community gathering places that bring footfall to an area - not yet another supermarket.

[Eagle]

Mary

When it was a Wetherspoon it was quite OK. Also around 2009 it had good management and served good ale.
Seems to have gone down hill since.

Very sad bad let us hope it can be made a decent Pub.

[Annie.]

Yes, you are right of course Mary.

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[parker]

Unless the Windmill is run like a Wetherspoon or an Antic pub and is revamped into somewhere similar to The Dartmouth Arms or The Sylvan Post I'm not interested in The Windmill carrying on to exist.
I feel most would find more use of the site as a supermarket of the Sainsbury's et al kind than how it currently stands now as a poorly run, underutilised dive.

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[marymck]

Unless the Windmill is run like a Wetherspoon or an Antic pub and is revamped into somewhere similar to The Dartmouth Arms or The Sylvan Post I'm not interested in The Windmill carrying on to exist.
I feel most would find more use of the site as a supermarket of the Sainsbury's et al kind than how it currently stands now as a poorly run, underutilised dive.

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It's not poorly run. It has a very experienced and efficient manager, who sadly has the odds stacked against her and her team, by the owners.

It is not a dive. It is friendly and welcoming. It is a "Safe Haven" for youngsters. That is, it is part of a scheme where youngsters can go for refuge and help if they are being bullied or threatened. The exact opposite of a "dive" in fact.

It's not under utilized. It is a big venue and attracts good numbers. Because of its size, it doesn't feel over crowded and noisy, as smaller pubs do. Local people use it for birthday parties, wedding parties and wakes. A local allotment group holds its meetings there. Live music and entertainment happens on a regular basis. The Portas Pilot film was screened there. Kirkdale Xmas and Sydenham Festival events have been held there.

It is shabby because the owners won't even pay to have the chiller cabinet, cooker or window glass repaired. They won't even pay for a land line!

But the potential is huge and I believe these pub grab plans of Sainsburys should be rejected and an opportunity given for the pub to be leased to someone who wants to run it as a pub.

I don't believe we need yet another supermarket. Sainsburys have 2 close by, plus Bell Green and one due to open at the Greyhound. Within 100 yards of the Windmill we have Tesco, Londis, CostCutter and the excellent Ram. But if Sainsburys feel they must be joined at the hip to Tesco, there are plenty of empty shops around - including one three doors away of the same sort of size, but with the added benefits of space for a loading bay at the back. Which is something the Windmill doesn't have space for.

If the Windmill closes, then the potential is lost forever Parker and it will never be revamped along the lines you like. Instead you will have an increase in street drinking, fuelled by the inevitable price war on the sale of cheap alcohol that will erupt between Tesco and Sainsburys.

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[G-Man]

Just catching up on this.

What are CAMRA doing to help and have you spoken to Lewisham Council? I thought they were the first to bring in rules stopping pubs from changing to Supermarkets with the Catford Bridge Tavern?

How does one object and on what grounds as I would like to.

Thanks

G-Man

[marymck]

Just catching up on this.

What are CAMRA doing to help and have you spoken to Lewisham Council? I thought they were the first to bring in rules stopping pubs from changing to Supermarkets with the Catford Bridge Tavern?

How does one object and on what grounds as I would like to.

Thanks

G-Man

Thanks for posting G-man. I'm sorry I've not time now to do more than a quick acknowledgment, because I'm working today and have a very tight deadline. As soon as I get that done I'll post in more depth. CAMRA are involved. In the meantime, the links above should give you the detail of the application and how to object. I'll post a summary here as soon as time permits. Cheers M

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[Eagle]

GMan and Mary

I am for keeping nearly all pubs and applaud LBL's idea to stop losing them. However does this refer to traditional pubs , or all pubs.

As you know this building only been a Pub about 15 or so years.

I do hope it can be saved and opened as a nice pub serving good ale.