Sydenham under a new flight path?

[Mr_Sheen]

http://www.flightradar24.com (or http://www.flightradar24.com/51.44,-0.07/12 to be a bit more precise!) is fun and there's no delay. What you see on the screen is what's overhead (with a few exceptions - older/smaller planes are not equipped with the right transponders). On the 'settings' option you can display the altitude of each plane.

As for the landing gear bit, I wasn't being sarky (well, not much!). Landing gear and flight controls use servo motors and hydraulics. It would be impossible to hear anything other than engine noise from 5,000+ ft. Unless you've got VERY sensitive and finely tuned hearing I doubt you'd be able to hear a fork lift truck parked next to a jet engine from a mile away. You're probably hearing engines throttling back.

[Rachael]

Excellent websites, I'm going to have hours of fun!

Fair point about what I can and can't hear. My main point was that it seems to me (and my ears) that some planes are coming across lower than they used to say a year ago.

[Annie.]

http://www.radarvirtuel.com/
Hope this link works, quite a useful tool.

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[alywin]

JRobinson could be right, although may not be. All I know is that when I'm sitting by the window working I see quite a few planes flying over, but then I've only been living here full-time for a few months, so may just be more sensitive to it.

[Rachael]

BA flight from JFK just went over my house at 2,000 ft. And that's not the lowest I've seen in recent months. It's the one going to London City, not Heathrow, which is presumably why it is so low.

[hairybuddha]

Flightradar is excellent, I have it on my phone. It's quite obvious from that that there is a stack, the Northern most point of which is directly overhead. That would explain some of it. Whether that's new or not I don't know. Fascinating to sit and watch it though.

[marymck]

I've put a computer techie question on the town asylum, related to this. Please could someone who understands these things take a look? Thanks.

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[Mr_Sheen]

It's quite obvious from that that there is a stack, the Northern most point of which is directly overhead. That would explain some of it. Whether that's new or not I don't know. Fascinating to sit and watch it though.

Acciording to this the stack(s) have been in the same places since the 60's so aircraft in the one that affects us (Biggin) won't be making any more noise now than they were before the flight path trial:
http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/H ... acks11.pdf
http://your.heathrow.com/wp-content/upl ... athrow.jpg

[Rachael]

It's quite obvious from that that there is a stack, the Northern most point of which is directly overhead. That would explain some of it. Whether that's new or not I don't know. Fascinating to sit and watch it though.

Acciording to this the stack(s) have been in the same places since the 60's so aircraft in the one that affects us (Biggin) won't be making any more noise now than they were before the flight path trial:
http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/H ... acks11.pdf
http://your.heathrow.com/wp-content/upl ... athrow.jpg

Well, yes, except that Heathrow recently ran an experiment that changed the patterns over Honor Oak, which led to many complaints. I'm not sure we can be entirely sure what's going on just looking at the official record. They can and do tinker with things on the margin - which is where we are.

In any case, it's the lower planes rather than the frequency which I have noticed.

[Mr_Sheen]

I've just done a google search on 'noise relief zones'. I seems the flight path tests were conducted for 5 months from last November.
http://airportfocusinternational.com/he ... lief-zones

We've since reverted back to the original flight path.
This shows that during the trial in order to avoid the one of the zones when turning in to final approach from the south pilots turned earlier or later and so avoided overflying Sydenham.
http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/ ... l-47b.aspx

So what we've go now is what we've always had, maybe people just got used to things being quieter during the trial and now things are back to normal it's a bit more noticeable?

[Rachael]

Yes, I've just edited my reply to correct it as I thought I would double check my facts - they were wrong! I think for me the issue is the low flying planes (possibly the LCY ones). Although the official record says nothing has changed, I HAVE noticed these low flying planes much more in the last year or so. I work from home, sitting by the back door, looking out the window, in all weathers. And I've been startled more than once by a plane that seems really, really low.

[Marathon]

As for the landing gear bit, I wasn't being sarky (well, not much!). Landing gear and flight controls use servo motors and hydraulics. It would be impossible to hear anything other than engine noise from 5,000+ ft. Unless you've got VERY sensitive and finely tuned hearing I doubt you'd be able to hear a fork lift truck parked next to a jet engine from a mile away. You're probably hearing engines throttling back.

Noise from the engines doesn't account for all noise you can hear. A significant proportion comes from airframe or aerodynamic noise which is generated by the flow of air over the aircraft and becomes particularly intrusive on aircraft on approach due to the high lift devices deployed in various stages as the the aircraft gets closer to touchdown. The 'maneuvering' noise mentioned by Rachel could come from one particular type of jet using LCY (the BAe 146 family noticeable by having a high wing and four small jet engines) as it extends its flaps. It wasn't until I flew on one that I realised what was making the noise - it's a loud high to low pitch howl that lasts a couple of seconds.

In terms of the height they are flying over Sydenham, it can only be those aircraft on approach to LCY that appear to be low, as for separation reasons, they have to fly under the Heathrow approach (which is generally around 4,000ft over Sydenham). But they have to fly above a certain height to avoid predominantly private aircraft transiting the London Control Zone at low level (up to 1500 ft). They also have to keep a minimum height (1500ft or 1600ft if flying in the vicinity of the Shard) to provide adequate clearance of the high rise buildings in London until they are on final approach to LCY. So aircraft landing at LCY could be flying anywhere between 1500 and 3000ft over Sydenham.

[14BradfordRoad]

In terms of the height they are flying over Sydenham, it can only be those aircraft on approach to LCY that appear to be low, as for separation reasons, they have to fly under the Heathrow approach (which is generally around 4,000ft over Sydenham). But they have to fly above a certain height to avoid predominantly private aircraft transiting the London Control Zone at low level (up to 1500 ft). They also have to keep a minimum height (1500ft or 1600ft if flying in the vicinity of the Shard) to provide adequate clearance of the high rise buildings in London until they are on final approach
to LCY. So aircraft landing at LCY could be flying anywhere between 1500 and 3000ft over Sydenham.

So no real need to 'duck' then!

Thanks for the info Marathon.

[Rachael]

Thanks, Marathon, that exactly explains what I've been hearing - that high-to-low howl from LCY bound planes.

[Steveofsyd]

Dear all,
Flew to New York for a week on business but made sure I went from Heathrow in order to preserve peace and quiet in the Shangri La of South London

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[alywin]

Resurrecting this thread: has anyone else noticed a significant increase in plane noise in the afternoons/evenings in the past few weeks? I know we have the windows open and it will therefore seem louder, but even so it does seem worse than normal.

[mosy]

I've also started to notice aeroplanes recently, so before you posted. I stopped noticing them ages ago as they don't bother me, so noticing them again recently made me wonder why.

Maybe it is open windows, unless recent high humidity affects noise waves somehow. Dunno.

[Parker1970]

I get quite a good view of planes on their fight paths but whilst I have not noticed an increase in numbers, I have noticed that they seem to be flying lower than before, that may explain it.

[mosy]

That's interesting, as I was just thinking as one went over just now, that I seem to have heard dozens today. I wondered if maybe it was just that my brain was now alert to them, so happy to hear that there might be a logical reason. Ta for that Parker1970

[marky.com]

It's the flights to London City Airport that you are probably noticing.

Most of the time the wind comes from the west, so flights land and take off in a westerly direction, meaning you don't see or hear the City Airport arrivals around here. When, due to the prevailing wind, the airports are taking off and landing in an easterly direction, the London City flights come in over Gravesend, Dartford, Sidcup, passing here just north of Sydenham, usually at a low altitude of around 1600 feet, which they hold right up until they turn around and line up to land - roughly over Westminster after turning north over Norwood/Herne Hill. The low altitude is so as to avoid the Heathrow planes which are higher up at around 3,800-5.800 feet or so over here (if there is little to no wind you can have Heathrow operating a westerly approach and City Airport operating an Easterly). It's a tricky approach that's pretty rigid so as to avoid the Shard, the o2 and Canary Wharf towers, with a much steeper approach than Heathrow (5% rather than 3%) onto a short runway.

There are a lot more twin engine BA Cityflyer Embraer E 190s operating to and from London CIty these days, but the CityJet Avroliner RJ85's with four engines are the loudest. As it's predominantly a business airport, there are a lot more flights arriving around 5-8pm on weekdays too.

When it's easterly, you also don't get the Heathrow landings on the turn onto the final approach overhead here, though you do get pretty much all departing flights to the Middle East and Asia going overhead, which are further south on a westerly take off, due to their 180 degree turn shortly after take-off.