Kirkdale Masterplan

[Tim Lund]

Can you just give a couple of best cases of SydSoc engagement with developers?

Why? You know many cases yourself.

But I want to know where you think SydSoc has best worked with developers - I suspect my answers would not be accepted as impartial.

[Tim Lund]

Why do you feel the need to be so destructive Tim?

I don't accept that this is being destructive, but I know what you mean, and I have answered various times in various ways. I simply do not think SydSoc, in its activities regarding planning and development, benefits the community. You disagree, so to you I am being destructive, and obviously, my view might undermine SydSoc's reputation. The way to respond is by pointing to SydSoc's planning successes. Should we be looking further than the recent Bell Green development?

I could just as well use various other bits of pejorative language to describe what you do - it would not advance any argument.

[marymck]

Finally, just to point out for those who don't kniw the background. Tim has been conducting a vendetta against the SydSoc for some time now. I don't kniw why. But it does not serve the community well. As has been said before, last night's meeting was NOT a SydSoc event.

There are many ways in which SydSoc does serve the community, but it has to be reasonable to ask whether its role in planning are among those. To raise such questions is not a vendetta.

Indeed, it was not a SydSoc event, but the small part of it I was able to attend had all the hallmarks of SydSoc hijacking a process which should be about involving the entire community, and allowing it to learn from actual planning experts who were present.

Well what a shame you didn't stay then. As usual, selective reporting on your part. You weren't there, yet you have to trash the efforts and intentions of those who were. Do you not understand that your constant attacks put people off getting involved? And that many people don't reply to you on this website because they know you're just going to beliittle and misrepresent them? When I read your vitriolic posts last night (we were still meeting and you rushed home to get your posts in first - like the reporter so keen to get the scoop he doesn't wait for the verdict), I thought I couldn't't be doing with bothering to respond any more. I'm quite cross with myself now for taking your bait.

How many organizations have you fallen out with Tim? Or do we need an FOI request on that one?

Well done wasting council tax payers money on that self indulgent FOI request BTW. Why didn't you just ask Chris Best? A word of warning please don't put the email addresses of the recipients of that email online.

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[leenewham]

This thread makes me want to run down the high street while tearing my skin off shouting noooooooooooooooooooooooiooooooooooooooo.

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[marymck]

This thread makes me want to run down the high street while tearing my skin off shouting noooooooooooooooooooooooiooooooooooooooo.

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And it makes me want to give up and just not bother any more.

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[leenewham]

Was the sydsoc involved in forest hill pools? Yes. Success.

What about the greyhound. Yes, pub saved from demolition. Success.

What about bringing the dolphin here? Yes, success.

What about the Hugh street? Yes, success.

What about saving the library? Yes, success.

What about supporting the literary piazza by the library? Yes, success.

I'm sure there are others. Of course not everyone will agree or be pleased with every decision they make and it's not prefect. But it does good and is worth supporting, something Tim agrees with.

This is a good opportunity to sing the praises of the Sydenham society. I'm sure those better qualified than I could give it justice.

It's also a good opportunity to pull up cases Tim where you feel things should have been done differently and why.

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[Pat Trembath]

I really cannot believe the huff and puff and negativity spouting from Tim.

For the record - this Neighbourhood Planning meeting was a SEE3 meeting, following up the SEE3 Horniman meeting a fortnight previously which Tim did not attend. Last night, apart from several members of Sydsoc and FH Soc there were others present, who were not members of either society, who had come along as they were interested in Neighbourhood Planning. The meeting began at 7.30 - Tim arrived at 7.40 after all the introductions had been done - and finished at 9pm - one hour and 10 minutes after he had left.

The subjects ranged from Kirkdale to Forest Hill Town Centre to Honor Oak Park to traffic and air quality.

I will save Tim's time by printing the email from the Head of Planning to Cllr Chris Best.

It was requested to ascertain whether Lewisham planners would be prepared to discuss the future of Kirkdale (which has a number of potential development sites) with members of the local community, under the auspices of SEE3. Up till now ad hoc planning decisions have left the street scape on one side of Kirkdale in a pretty abysmal state, despite the fact that it is surrounded by Conservation Areas and has an EH Grade 2 building at its heart. Some planning decisions have been ignored, permission has not been sought for work which has been done, and lack of resources means lack of enforcement from Lewisham.

Yes, the Sydenham Society would like to see a masterplan (or a planning brief at the very least)for the Kirkdale area in view of development opportunities in the area, and judging by last night's meeting so would others.

This continual carping about the Sydenham Society by Tim is tedious so this will be my last post on STF for a long time.

The email from the Head of Planning is below::

"We are certainly happy to have discussions on planning decisions and the actions of individual owners in respect of Kirkdale. We can also discuss the way forward on the Willow Way area. To do that discussion justice, we need to pull together some initial joint officer input on the planning and property fronts and, given that a number of people are away at present, I don't think this could realistically be achieved during the course of the next week.

Can I therefore suggest that, at this stage, we confirm that we will have those internal discussions when the relevant officers are available and have had the chance to prepare a background note on the current position."

[michael]

Not quite sure why how someone is dressed is relevant, but then again, I'm still puzzling over why Michael sometimes thinks who someone's nephew is makes a difference.

My point at the time, which bears no relevance to any of this discussion, so I don't know why Tim chooses to raise it in relation to Kirkdale, was that a baronet was writing exaggerated nonsense and being paid to do so. Why, one might ask, do the Evening Standard see fit to pay him to write about the state of urban housing, and why does Tim expect me to provide a detailed and unpaid response to such views?

Having previously said

Who is this idiot who thinks that every American lives in a house as big as the entire universe?

in repsonse to the line "The square footage of the average new-build is infinitely less in Britain than in Germany or the US". I felt I should found out who the idiot was, slightly regretting such terminology even in jest. I was rewarded by Tim with accusations of inverse snobbery seven months after writing the line. And that line that so puzzled Tim was:

Actually I have probably written more of my views on this thread than Ferndinand Mount did in his article in the Standard, and yet he almost certainly got paid to write his views, while mine come to you completely without charge. So why not carry on the debate with the prime minister's uncle rather than with me?

I would be happy to discuss the issues further with Sir William clad in lycra down the pub, I'm sure the two of us would be able to thrash out all the issues with the housing crisis in Britain. I hope this is adequate explanation for Tim and that his puzzlement is now at an end.

Alas, another well intentioned thread lies in tatters. Looks like we need a new thread to discuss what would actually benefit Kirkdale.

[Annie.]

Just like to say, as a Sydenham resident I appreciate that the Sydenham Society gets involved on my behalf, I have never met or had anything to do with the Syd Society,but I am sure Sydenham would be a worse place without all the hard work and effort from the people who are involved. keep up the good work.

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[leenewham]

More on the interesting piece in the current Sydenham Society newsletter by Mary, which is mainly about the need for a master plan for Kirkdale, blighted as it is currently by some pretty dreadful development, and unsympathetic roof lines.



How should a plan reconcile these roof lines? Will it mean the lower ones rising, or the higher ones coming down? In any master plan for Kirkdale, will there be any numbers given for housing densities?

To take this back on track:

The signage should all line up.
The new developments are unloved and ugly and detract from Kirkdale (the Road).
Consideration should be given to the design of the signage and shop.
Kirkdale should have it's own shop front guidelines that should inspire show owners, not just tell them what they can't do.
Cheap, poorly designed microflats should be discouraged.

I think the Kirkdale masterplan is more about how to improve the environment in Kirkdale, Sydenham's oldest High Street, not just about how many people we can cram into homes. I'm sure you agree Tim that the changes in Kirkdale and new developments have all been rubbish.

If you increase the amount of people, where will you build the extra primary, junior and comprehensive schools that are needed? Not to mention nurseries etc.

The big question is: HOW CAN WE MAKE KIRKDALE BETTER.

[Nigel]

Annie could not have put it better .
Full support from me too.

good afternoon
Nigel

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[Maria]

I too agree with you - full support for what you stated Annie

[Maria]

tedious so this will be my last post on STF for a long time.

Oh please don't stop writing Pat - the fact is that the absolute great majority of our Forum posters do want to know what is going on and do believe that there is huge success to celebrate; there are concerns and delays and frustrations as well, of course, but we don't blame local people who we know strive so hard to counter all this paralysis and ineptness.

If you stop writing we are left with... well us, the well meaners but at times not well enough informed, together the unrelenting moaners who, seems to me, must either have personal problems they need to deal with or some kind of past grievances they are not able to let go. Counselling? Meditation? Yoga? .... just some possible helpful approaches.

This thread makes me want to run down the high street while tearing my skin off shouting noooooooooooooooooooooooiooooooooooooooo

And please Lee don't do that either it may seriously worry people! Though, mind, still not nearly as dramatic as when I did that (running in the high street, not shouting noooooooo) and my skirt fell down. British people tried to pretend they had not seen it & it had not happened, non British laughed out loud. So did I (but the skirt has now safely gone to the bin)

[Rachael]

I'd second that - hearing from people like Pat, and Chris Best, is really important for people like me and I'm sure other forum members. The more often people who really know what is going on post information here, the more informed (and reasonable) our debate will be.

On another note, can I be the first to congratulate Tim on his very clever reverse-psychology campaign to increase support for SydSoc? (If that wasn't your intention, Tim, you might want to change your strategy.)

[Tim Lund]

Ok - sorry every one. I'll work on a more effective way of making the various points I want to make.