Too many estate agents on Sydenham Road?

[leenewham]

Green ones?

[marymck]

Road no more unpleasant than any London restaurant

This obviously is not true. But completely agree on the pizzas, they were great!

I have just had tea in one of the many pavement cafes on the main Holland park/ notting hill drag. I often do so in soho. Seems about the same to me. Have you any evidence that I'm "obviously" wrong?

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[Rachael]

I would agree with Mary that if a restaurant is half-way decent, outside seating will be used whatever the road is like. Indeed, just opposite the old unpronounceable Italian you will see people sitting outside the Dolphin, and not just for a fag. There would be more if the Dolphin didn't have its garden. In Forest Hill we sit on out on the South Circ at Canvas and Cream and teetering above the South Circ being stared at by passengers on the upper decks of buses outside St David coffee shop.

[hairybuddha]

Perhaps making less of a generalisation might help? Unless you are really suggesting that the road conditions outside the new solicitors are no worse than outside "any London restaurant".

I'm not saying they're awful, I'm just saying they are not exactly conducive to sitting outside, nibbling a plate of antipasta. Unless you are a fan of speeding mopeds and emergency sirens. And as Rachael sort of suggests, you would do so in spite of the environment rather than because of it.

[leenewham]

The road isn't the problem. The restaurant and the building was the problem and the bit you sat in outside was pretty dull and uninspiring. It just wasn't a great environment to eat in (which I did in it's various incarnations, but was never impressed enough to go back, which may have been the problem). If you eat out and spent a fair amount of money, it has to look and feel the part. Eating out is emotive, it's should be an enjoyable experience with great food, service and a nice environment to be in. It's not just about the food. If it's about money, then you may as well just eat at home, which is far cheaper. To save money when going out people tend to cut back on booze or share starters or deserts or hunt out deals.

[marymck]

Perhaps making less of a generalisation might help? Unless you are really suggesting that the road conditions outside the new solicitors are no worse than outside "any London restaurant".

I'm not saying they're awful, I'm just saying they are not exactly conducive to sitting outside, nibbling a plate of antipasta. Unless you are a fan of speeding mopeds and emergency sirens. And as Rachael sort of suggests, you would do so in spite of the environment rather than because of it.

But this is London! And it's a main through road. What do you expect? To me this is no worse than sitting outside any other cafe or restaurant on a main through road in London. That is my opinion. There may be worse. There may be better. I do believe the air quality has got worse in sydenham and forest hill since the roadworks have slowed the traffic so much. I shall ask LBL for the measurements. But, as Rachael said, people sit outside canvas and cream and to the front of the dolphin quite happily.

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[hairybuddha]

Fine, again all in spite of rather than because of the environment. And certainly not "as good as any other restaurant in London".

I stand by my opinion that the road environment will not have helped that business. Both from the point of view of the noise and pollution disruption and the High St not being an environment conducive to walking, hence low footfall that far down. It's totally lacking in ambition to just accept that nothing can or should be done because it is a busy road. 1980s town planning still strangling our High Streets.

[marymck]

Fine, again all in spite of rather than because of the environment. And certainly not "as good as any other restaurant in London".

I stand by my opinion that the road environment will not have helped that business. Both from the point of view of the noise and pollution disruption and the High St not being an environment conducive to walking, hence low footfall that far down. It's totally lacking in ambition to just accept that nothing can or should be done because it is a busy road. 1980s town planning still strangling our High Streets.

I look forward to you sharing your evidence.

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[Rachael]

Perhaps making less of a generalisation might help? Unless you are really suggesting that the road conditions outside the new solicitors are no worse than outside "any London restaurant".

I'm not saying they're awful, I'm just saying they are not exactly conducive to sitting outside, nibbling a plate of antipasta. Unless you are a fan of speeding mopeds and emergency sirens. And as Rachael sort of suggests, you would do so in spite of the environment rather than because of it.

I don't 'sort of' suggest it, it's what I am explicitly saying. I think you are being unfairly nitpicky with Mary's statement quoted above. I think you know what she meant.

[marymck]

Thanks Rachael. I know he knows, and you know he knows, and he knows we know he knows. But such is life.

I'm sure most would prefer a pleasant sea breeze or the smell of flowers wafting over us as we relax at our local pavement cafe.(I was going to say "we'd all prefer", but did a rewrite for the more pedantic). But the reality is, we live in London. Ah now I'm back home I wish I'd stayed in Holland Park for a roadside cocktail and a spot of traffic watching. Streets are always more pleasant seen through a margerita.

Re. lee's point about the restaurant being too big: when it was Turkish (or was it Greek) it always seemed to be packed. I don't know why that venture closed. But at that time we had another Turkish place across the road, so maybe too similar a menu?

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[leenewham]

I didn't say it was too big Mary. That was someone else. I said outside was pretty dull and uninspiring. It just wasn't a great environment to eat in.

I.e. not like the places in holland park you went to and liked. With a bit if thought it could have been, even in such a dull building.

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[marymck]

My apologies Lee, for attributing someone else's comments to you.

I agree the space could have been much more imaginative used than of late. It was very lively when it was a Turkish restaurant.

Sadly duller than dull now, as an accountant's office! I do mourn the loss of the potential of the site. I think the accountant could easily have had offices on the first floor and let to to a restaurant on the ground floor.

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[Steveofsyd]

I totally agree that a few tables would work. Many places...Clapham, Shoreditch etc have much more traffic but people sit outside. Crystal Palace is a solid traffic jam and it works there.
A good awning and where appropriate and with space, a bot of screening with plants helps. In the evening with a bit of decorative lighting, Sydenham would come to life and the traffic is non existent then.

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[leenewham]

Bang on, the only thing I don't like about sitting outside is that's where the smokers go. It's on reason I ask cafes who want bi-fold doors to think twice about it, especially if they think they are going to be family places as the smoke will drift inside.

[Steveofsyd]

Agree but also the appeal is not necessarily being outside, but is the kerb appeal that a couple of tables generate. I'm always enticed in to establishments that look inviting.

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[leenewham]

True, if its done well.

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[parker]

Crystal Palace are now getting a branch of Foxtons... The sure sign an area is very much up and coming. I don't like the company but nearly every 'decent' town high street has one. When Sydenham and Forest Hill get one I'll sleep easy!

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