Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

[hairybuddha]

(Woodman closed 3 years ago btw)

Whoops, I think I meant The Woodhouse..? Anyway, I reckon the residents of Sydenham who want to pop out for a pint are well catered for

[Mr_Sheen]

Well to all those who are pro pulling it down, it's not just about the Greyhound any more, it's about unscrupulous developers being able to ride roughshod over agreed plans, breaking the law and knowing that any fine will be more than met by profits from a build 'em cheap stack 'em high and watch the cash roll in style development. It's about developers not giving a damn about pi$$ing off the locals. It's about weak council officials who hope the problem will go away.

This is setting a very real precedent. Don't whine when a developer submits plans near you then rips them up and does something completely different while all your complaints fall on deaf ears and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Rant over. I'm retiring from this thread.

[G-Man]

I'm actually getting pretty annoyed here. I'm talking pubs in Sydenham, the only one I frequent is the Dolphin. All the others simply don't cater for mine or many people I know in the local areas taste. If we want a decent pint in surroundings we like we have to travel to either Forest Hill or Crystal Palace. Why shouldn't there be another pub catering for people like me who like decent beer, and a bite in decent surroundings? Why shouldn't we be keeping our money in Sydenham, which in turn will bring further improvements to the area? This simply must be saved.

Also, the fact that the Greyhound was a dive beforehand is not an argument. Look at the Catford Bridge Tavern. That was an awful pub with lots of trouble. Look at it now!

Cheers

G-Man

[leenewham]

Agree! Mr Sheen.
Agree G-man.

Don't forget:
Two halts shut.
Windmill wil probably become a Sainsbury's.
Woodman shut and now an estate agents.

Greyhound currently shut. It has the opportunity to be a different pub, offering something different to the others, which all seem very similar. A Catford Bridge Tavern esq pub would be great.

On another note, Antic just announced they are opening a pub in West Norwood after the original one fell through.

[Eagle]

Lee

You mention closure of The Windmill and The Two Halves ( or Half's )

Not great examples of historic watering holes in either case.
I do not think W G would have drunk in either establishment , or Mr Shackleton ( two honest burghers of Sydenham past ).

Lee
I like decent beer, indeed a pub without decent ale is not a pub. It would be great if the former Greyhound changed to become a lovely well run real ale establishment. Just as likely as Tim and Michael agreeing on housing.
Tend to frequent Moon and Stars , but also Sylvan Post , Capitol and Dolphin OK.

[hairybuddha]

Well to all those who are pro pulling it down, it's not just about the Greyhound any more, it's about unscrupulous developers being able to ride roughshod over agreed plans, breaking the law and knowing that any fine will be more than met by profits from a build 'em cheap stack 'em high and watch the cash roll in style development. It's about developers not giving a damn about pi$$ing off the locals. It's about weak council officials who hope the problem will go away.

I'm sorry. I don't subscribe to the idea that this is about more than a scruffy pub that is currently a scruffy building site. The "you're either with us or against us mentality" is a bit over the top. Most people are probably completely ambivalent. I wish you well in your battle but all it seems to be achieving at the moment is six years and counting of an ugly ruin at the entrance to Sydenham.

I'm talking pubs in Sydenham, the only one I frequent is the Dolphin. All the others simply don't cater for mine or many people I know in the local areas taste.

So there is currently a pub in the town that caters for your needs but you want another?

Look at the Catford Bridge Tavern. That was an awful pub with lots of trouble. Look at it now!

Closing? Sorry, couldn't resist.

[JulietP]

If you want to go boozing in Sydenham. Within a two mile radius there are, off the top of my head, The Woodman, The Windmill, the one opposite The Windmill, The Railway (?), The Dolphin, The Golden Lion, The Alfred, and the one on Bell Green. There are another half a dozen on the Penge side and the same again around Forest Hill. Quite enough I reckon.

I suspect you don't personally go boozing in Sydenham! The Woodman has been an estate agent for over a year, the Railway is now the Pavilion and the Windmill and the Fox and Hounds opposite it are both horrible!

[G-Man]

I'm talking pubs in Sydenham, the only one I frequent is the Dolphin. All the others simply don't cater for mine or many people I know in the local areas taste.

So there is currently a pub in the town that caters for your needs but you want another?

There needs to be more choice for the ever changing demographic in Sydenham. Although I 'like' the Dolphin I would like to have that choice. We also have a very long High Street so that top end could do with something that caters for people like me in the area, of which there are more and more. Or do you want just bland generic chains like another supermarket?

Look at the Catford Bridge Tavern. That was an awful pub with lots of trouble. Look at it now!

Closing? Sorry, couldn't resist.

It's been bought by another pub company, who run the very successful Lock Tavern and Shackelwell Arms. They see it as a real business that will give real returns. Who knows they might look at the Greyhound. Do your research. Sorry couldn't resist.

Cheers

G-Man

[hairybuddha]

I suspect you don't personally go boozing in Sydenham! The Woodman has been an estate agent for over a year, the Railway is now the Pavilion and the Windmill and the Fox and Hounds opposite it are both horrible!

Yep, I meant the Woodhouse. The pub on top of Sydenham Hill.

We also have a very long High Street so that top end could do with something that caters for people like me in the area, of which there are more and more. Or do you want just bland generic chains like another supermarket?

I think this and the post above from Juliet probably sum up where we are never going to agree on this issue. What are the chances that you will get a pub that caters to your needs? Call me cynical, but far more likely you will get a miserable, too small, drinking hole full of depressing, pot bellied men and sustained by a core group of alcoholics. And there's one of those not 20 metres further down the road. And you won't get it for another 6 years judging by the planning process currently grinding along.

Can the things that you are looking for in a community space not be provided by something other than a pub?

It's been bought by another pub company, who run the very successful Lock Tavern and Shackelwell Arms. They see it as a real business that will give real returns. Who knows they might look at the Greyhound. Do your research. Sorry couldn't resist.

Fair enough. Swung for a bit of levity and missed

[Eagle]

This , rather long subject , has devoloped into pubs of Sydenham and around.

Probably Dolphin best pub in SE26. Dulwich Woodhouse not as good since 1) Youngs Beer brewed by Well's in Bedford , miss the Wandle Water , Ouse not the same. 2 ) Since they upmarketed the establishment about 5 or so years ago. Seems only really interested in the posh eating trade. If you just go for a drink not made very welcome. Used to be good in 70's etc.
Best ever pub in my experience was The Bricklayers Arms up to about 82 or so. Best period was middle 70's . What atmosphere. All ages .

[G-Man]

I think this and the post above from Juliet probably sum up where we are never going to agree on this issue. What are the chances that you will get a pub that caters to your needs? Call me cynical, but far more likely you will get a miserable, too small, drinking hole full of depressing, pot bellied men and sustained by a core group of alcoholics. And there's one of those not 20 metres further down the road. And you won't get it for another 6 years judging by the planning process currently grinding along.

I think there is a big chance. If a pub company or someone has vision as to how it would work as a space and has observed the changing demographic in the area we could have a splendid pub full of lovely people. I'm going to keep saying it as it is a great case study - the Catford Bridge Tavern. And small pubs do work. Look at The Holborn Whippet, or a plethora of pubs in the east end and in and around Borough.

And NO - somewhere else won't fulfil my needs. I like beer. I like pubs, I like a nice atmosphere in a pub, and my friends and contemporaries feel the same.

G-Man

[leenewham]

Again Gman is spot on.

Lots of groovy chains like Antic etc are investing in places like Sydenham. I love the Syvian Post. Something like that here would work and do well I expect.

I like it, Gman likes it, even Eagle likes it. Having something like that within staggering distance of Kente may put the Wethespoons in Penge out of business!

[stuart]

... and has observed the changing demographic in the area we could have a splendid pub full of lovely people.

That's not a nice thing to infer about us of the old demographic!

Stuart

[Tim Lund]

I think there is a big chance. If a pub company or someone has vision as to how it would work as a space and has observed the changing demographic in the area we could have a splendid pub full of lovely people. I'm going to keep saying it as it is a great case study - the Catford Bridge Tavern. And small pubs do work. Look at The Holborn Whippet, or a plethora of pubs in the east end and in and around Borough.

And NO - somewhere else won't fulfil my needs. I like beer. I like pubs, I like a nice atmosphere in a pub, and my friends and contemporaries feel the same.

G-Man

I think there is a chance, but I'm not sure how big it is. Is there a way how good a chance it is could be identified - and accepted? In other words, some community group make a serious effort to develop a business case for a new Greyhound, and then approach Purelake with it? I have to admit I'm doubtful about this, not because I know much about the economics of pubs, but because if there was a good chance, someone would have come up with it by now. But maybe not, so I still have some hope. Some way back on this thread 'Natureboy' expressed an interest, and I tried putting him in touch with people at SEE3, who should at least have the contacts, but so far nothing. I also contacted the guy who owns the retail space, who should also be interested.

We don't have to love Purelake, or try to defend it, but I think the hostile rhetoric on this thread is unhelpful. I am sure they want out, and a less charged atmosphere would help unblock this impasse.

[Nigel]

This discussion needs some urgent re-framing . Much as I respect the the views of others , in my submission this has gone beyond " should Purelake reinstate the Greyhound or do we give in and let them do what they want to do ? "
My reasoning is simple- there was huge energy to halt their vandalism, upheld by a court .This succeeded and we are now looking to stop them using delay, despair and lack of focus to get their way .
To make a valid comparison - what would we have said if Riney had reneged on their contract and not replaced the abomination of a roundabout at Cobbs?
I don't think it is relevant at all, to ask supporters of the Greyhound to justify their reasons - and the " how many pubs do you need? " argument is wholly specious . It should be obvious to all apart from those that have given up , that the rest of us want a range of pubs and restaurants, variety - from plain boozers to gastro-pubs and a buzzing high street. You do not get that by knocking down a pub before it has had a chance to flourish in its new guise.
Those that pessimistically cling to the " it was always a dump " argument are missing the point by miles - it is a blank canvas , as was Kente, the Dolphin, Sugahill, Blue Mountain etc . The pessimists have also failed to update themselves - Sydenham is changing , there is more appetite for a wider range of pubs and eateries . We have seen other pubs regenerate, others still grow out of nothing , like the Sylvan Post . I say let's have a bit of ambition , and equally , let's make sure that Purelake , and whichever cheating scum follow them , don't think they can get away with it in Sydenham.
Finally, I hope MrSheen does not retire from this thread - he has been on the money throughout and we need all the enthusiasm we can get.
A very good evening
Nigel

[hairybuddha]

Fair enough everyone - I appreciate that my view is probably not of the majority on this one and a lot of people feel strongly that it should become a pub again. I should probably leave it there.

If it did end up as a genuinely nice pub and a genuinely worthwhile addition to the High St that would be fine. And if it does end up putting a Wetherspoons out of business then I'm sure that's something we can all get behind!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Eagle]

I also accept I am in the minority camp here and indeed I do hope I am wrong.

Cannot see it ever being responsible for a JW closing.

I hope this time next year we might have more positive news.

[simon]

I agree with Nigel and Mr Sheen.

[Nigel]

I think I have joined the illustrious company of MrSheen and JRobinson in getting no responses from Purelake . To avoid boring people on this forum I was considering posting my emails and non-response on the hoarding surrounding the Greyhound .
My next move is to write to every partner listed on website asking what they think about being associated with Purelake given their behaviour throughout .
Grateful for any thoughts and would welcome anyone that wanted to post , in the interest of the public of course . I am planning a kind of " conservation crime scene " letterhead with yellow stripes etc to draw attention. Happy to share this .
A very good evening
Nigel

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Mr_Sheen]

A brief return from retirement to give an update on communications with Purelake:

Wednesday 7th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Thursday 8th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Friday 9th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Monday 12th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Tuesday 13th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Wednesday 14th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Thursday 15th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.
Friday 16th. Emailed asking for an estimate as to when work on the Greyhound would be complete. No response.

I'm beginning to take this personally.