Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

[gillyjp]

Oh this is sad news. I guess all down to the Greyhound debacle.

That would have been a much better site than the one mentioned in the old High Street.

I trust the people that fought teeth and nail to hold onto the Greyhound at all costs are savouring their victory.

Yes - by 'the people that fought tooth and nail to hold onto the Greyhound' you surely must mean the Sydenham Society? Rather than now having a 'Gateway' to Sydenham we have an eyesore and total mess thanks mainly to them. It makes me so cross - it could have been such a better development but thanks to their meddling and insisting that the Greyhound remain a pub, getting the area listed as a conservation area - it continues to remain an embarrassment and testament to their interference. What a waste of time and now even Sainsburys have given up. The Sydenham Society should be ashamed of themselves.

[simono]

Oh dear, what a mess. If the Windmill is to become a Sainsbury's will there be a huge campaign to keep it as a pub like we have had for the Two Halves or because it is up Kirkale doesn't it matter?
And we have a ruin at the site of the Greyhound when we could have, as Gillyjp has said, a high quality development, when because the Sydenham Society stuck its nose into things it didn't understand we going to be left with an eyesore rather than the gateway we could have had.

[hairybuddha]

Bit harsh on Syd Soc - They are clearly concerned with preserving the look and feel of the town - A yawning great eyesore seems perfectly appropriate.

[leenewham]

Work on the greyhound will start soon. Knocking it down would mean that the first thing people see when they come here is a supermarket. Good on the Syd Soc for saving the oldest put in the area so we now have the opportunity of an exciting addition to the high street. People need to be patient. Not long ago people were complaining about the development behind the Greyhound, now it seems people want it to be on view.

Give it time, it will work out.

[marymck]

I know I'm breaking my self imposed rule about posting, but it's just to pass on some information. I'm told sainsbury's have not yet purchased the windmill and that their decision whether or not to purchase will be influenced by whether they get a licence for off sales from 06.00 to 00.00 hrs.

Closing date for objections to the licence is 11th June.

The windmill's staff and customers intend to start a petition to keep the pub.

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[one leg chris]

hi I an a user of this pub and am disabled I am a user of a wheelchair one of the main reasons I use this pub is that it is the only pub I can get into in the area that has a disabled toilet so I say save this pub for that reason alone there is many more people in my position that use this pub for the same reason and have access to the outside garden area and always find the staff most helpful please please stop the pub turning into a sainsburys we just had a tescos express put on this street the pub is part of our community and should remain a pub

[NatashaM]

I can't believe people are slagging off SydSoc over the Greyhound.

It was never in the plans that the pub would go. Pure Lake illegally demolished the pub against the agreed planning application.

[Eagle]

Natasha
Yes perhaps a bit had on a group of well meaning citizens , who have the interests of everyone at heart ( or I hope they do).

I do wonder how many of the top brass of the society ever visited the Greyhound prior to current problem.

In years since I started drinking in Pubs , about 66 , The Greyhound was usually best avoided.
It attracted the wrong sort of clientelle and rarely had any decent ale.

In many ways would think a coffee shop better suited to the new environment.

[marymck]

A concerned local resident (not me!) visited Laurence House this afternoon and saw a
licencing officer - Simon Duckett. This is the resident's understanding of that conversation:

• 1 Sainsburys is opening a store on the site now occupied by The Windmill on a 24 hour
  basis and is applying for a licence to sell alcohol between the hours of 6 am to 12 midnight.
  
  2 According to Lewisham, there was no need to put in a planning application as it is not a
  "change of use" of the premises. [***see my comments below***]
  
  3 Not known at what date Sainsburys propose to open it as a supermarket with alcohol licence.
  
  4 It seems that they are the owners of the building.
  
  5 If anbody wants to make an objection to the granting of the alcohol licence, there are four licence objectives that will be taken into account -
  
  (i) Prevention of crime and disorder
  
  (ii) Public safety
  
  (iii) Prevention of public nuisance
  
  (iv) Protection of children from harm.
  
  6 Any objection has to tie in with the four points in 5(a), (b), (c) and (d) above and must relate to the "alcohol" element not that it is to be a supermarket.
  
  7 Date for objections is midnight on 11 June 2013.

The telephone No of the Lewisham Premises Licencing Department is
020 8314 6400.

I will post again as soon as I have further information.

*** I believe Sainsbury's will require planning permission, because I believe Lewisham now have a pub protection policy, lessons having (hopefully!) been learnt by the loss of The Woodman as a community asset. But clearly time is of the essence and there's a real risk it could become a fait accompli by default if a licence is granted. ***

[marymck]

Objections should be put in writing, with your name and address, to:

Licensing Team
Fourth Floor
1 Laurence House, Catford Road
SE6 4RU
Tel:
020 8314 6400

Email:
licensing@lewisham.gov.uk

Any objections should reach the Licensing Team by midnight on 11th June and MUST relate only to the four grounds for objection mentioned in my previous post.

[marymck]

Here is some further guidance, from Lewisham's website ...

Licensing - guidance on making a representation

A key feature of the new licensing regime is to allow local communities to have a say in licensing decisions that may affect them. It also ensures that professionals such as the police, fire authorities, trading standards and environmental health officers are able to scrutinise applications and take action if problems occur.

The Licensing Act 2003 allows the views of local people and businesses to be taken into account when someone applies for a licence or certificate to carry out a licensable activity such as selling alcohol, providing regulated entertainment and providing late night refreshment.
Are you an interested party?

To have your say, you must be an 'interested party' for the premises concerned. This means you must either be a:

person living in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a residents' association) representing people that live in that vicinity
person involved in a business in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a trade association) representing people involved in businesses in the vicinity of the premises.

Whether somebody lives or works 'in the vicinity' of a premises is a matter that will be decided by the relevant licensing authority (and where there are disputes, by the courts).

In deciding this, licensing authorities may look at whether that party is likely to be affected by the grant of the licence application in respect of those premises.

While licensing authorities may wish to give broad indications of where they consider the vicinity to be, each case must be considered on its own merits.

Interested parties have a number of rights under the Act. If they think granting a new licence or certificate or changing an existing one would undermine any of the licensing objectives, they can make representations to the relevant licensing authority. They can also ask the licensing authority to review a licence or certificate if problems occur which undermine the licensing objectives. The licensing objectives are:

the prevention of crime and disorder
public safety
the prevention of public nuisance
the protection of children from harm.

You can download further guidance notes below for more information about interested parties.

Guidance for Interested parties: making representations

Date:
25 November 2010
Type:
pdf
Size:
37.9kb

Guidance for interested parties: appealing licensing decisions

Date:
12 April 2011
Type:
pdf
Size:
34.7kb

Contact

Licensing Team
Fourth Floor
1 Laurence House, Catford Road
SE6 4RU
Tel:
020 8314 6400

Email:
licensing@lewisham.gov.uk

The link to this page is ...

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/ ... ation.aspx

And you will find more links to further guidance on the webpage.

[dantheman]

the windmill has been up for sale for years, advertised with different commercial agents and the price slashed several times. nobody wanted to buy it and keep it as a pub because guess what it doesnt earn enough money to make it a viable investment. no love or effort has been put into the windmill for that reason. sainsburys bought the property late last year and i say let them get on with it.

[marymck]

As the windmill always seems to be packed, your info makes me wonder if the property company who owned the pub gave the landlord a very unfair lease. It wouldn't be the first time a property company has deliberately made it tough for a pub to be viable.

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[dantheman]

fact of the matter is the owner can charge whatever rent they like regardless if fair or not, nobody forced to take a lease or just maybe the owner had a large debt to service therefore dictating the rent needed or maybe just thought sell up and invest the proceeds elsewhere, guess well never know for sure. one thing for sure, if it was worth buying to keep as a pub im sure another pubco would of done so, obviously the market didnt think so!

[Tim Lund]

Thanks, Dan. Your common sense comes like a breath of fresh air.

[Eagle]

I agree Dan and Tim

I believe LBC 's new policy of protecting pubs refers to historic pubs . Not modern establishments like Windmill and God forbid the Two halves.

If it were Tesco threatening an opening many on this bite would go bananas . It seems Sainsbury ( who have more local coverage than Tesco ) are the good boys, God knows why.

[marymck]

fact of the matter is the owner can charge whatever rent they like regardless if fair or not, nobody forced to take a lease or just maybe the owner had a large debt to service therefore dictating the rent needed or maybe just thought sell up and invest the proceeds elsewhere, guess well never know for sure. one thing for sure, if it was worth buying to keep as a pub im sure another pubco would of done so, obviously the market didnt think so!

As I'm sure you're aware Dan, the property companies that own our pubs can and do put restrictions on the lease, other than rent, in order to make a pub unviable. This is usually because they have no interest in pubs, but only in maximising their profit on the land/building for development.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this was definitely the case with The Windmill. I don't know the background. Which is where I'm hoping you can help. Neither the staff nor the customers that I've spoken to were aware that the pub has been sold and this is a done deal. In fact, a member of staff I spoke to said that Sainsbury's purchase of the pub would depend on whether they got permission to sell alcohol from 06.00 to midnight. (Which, as a nearby resident, I would see as a potentially dangerous move.)

As I've been unable to find the sales particulars on the internet, I'd be grateful if you could post a link, so that we can all benefit from your background knowledge. Some of my questions I'm hoping you or the agents can answer are: How long was the pub on the market? Who were the agents? When did the sale go through? Why no sales board? Were there adverts in the local press? If so where and when?

Thanks.

[marymck]

I believe LBC 's new policy of protecting pubs refers to historic pubs . Not modern establishments like Windmill and God forbid the Two halves.

Actually, my understanding is that it's as much about protecting community assets and social infrastructure as it is about historic buildings. Probably more so.

[Tim Lund]

Mary - why do you think the Windmill is a community asset?

[marymck]

Mary - why do you think the Windmill is a community asset?

hi I an a user of this pub and am disabled I am a user of a wheelchair one of the main reasons I use this pub is that it is the only pub I can get into in the area that has a disabled toilet so I say save this pub for that reason alone there is many more people in my position that use this pub for the same reason and have access to the outside garden area and always find the staff most helpful please please stop the pub turning into a sainsburys we just had a tescos express put on this street the pub is part of our community and should remain a pub

As a space the Windmill could be an amazing pub too.

Agree with G-Man that is could be a really good pub and hope it doesn’t end up as another Sainsbury’s

For my part, I often go there. It's always busy. The staff have a good community spirit. They've been very supportive of the PopUp Kirkdale movement. Always friendly and welcoming ... unlike The Woodman, which under the last management, gave a very cold shoulder to new customers. It's a big venue and is now the only building in upper Kirkdale where one could hold an event. Children are welcome till 5.00 p.m.

Pubs are the only social outlet for many. We've lost one - The Woodman - which used to be good, but fell on hard times due to mis-management and restrictive lease. But before then, The Woodman was an attractive, viable pub. Each of our local pubs have (or in The Woodman's case, had) very distinctive identities. And they are all popular.

(BTW The Woodman was a nice, welcoming, popular pub till it was taken over and painted that horrible cold teal colour - reflecting the coldness of the welcome inside. Where once we had tables we now have broken pavements and parked cars!)

I believe The Windmill is an important community asset and should be saved.