Say No To T£sco

[JRobinson]

As you may know, there are planning applications in the pipeline for a T£sco on Sydenham Road.

I am against this for many reasons. I don't believe that they will offer anything that can't be purchased elsewhere already (quite often cheaper, often better quality). They have a proven record of bad practices to staff, and suppliers (which I haven't looked into myself yet, but a simple search on your favourite search engine will find many examples I'm sure - already linked in the other thread is Tescopoly)

any large supermarket that opens will allways take custom away from smaller local shops. This is proven. We have empty shops already, we don't want or need more. T£sco would use their large scale distribution centres, etc to sell goods in a Metro store cheaper than elsewhere on the high street to the eventual detriment of the local community - yes milk might be 10p a litre cheaper (or whatever), but that shouldn't be a reason to do all shopping there!

It is often stated that any shop is better than no shop - however in my opinion not when it's T£sco (of JS, Morison, etc, etc) - we wouldn't expect it to be another Co-Op because there is already one down the road, so why do we need T£sco?

I'd like to see it back as a pub or restaurant.
(maybe a collective real ale, not brewery tied pub?)

If you have any information about the planning application, where it is in the process, or want to offer ideas of how we can go about not letting T£sco open, and getting somethign better in, then please use this thread.

Thanks

Jon

[michael]

I would recommend speaking to the Sydenham Society who can be very useful and effective with opposing planning applications. Even if they disagree with you, they should be able to help advise about the planning process and the most effective ways to oppose such a development on the high street (and it isn't easy when an A1 unit wants to open).

There is a flaw in your logic when you say
'I don't believe that they will offer anything that can't be purchased elsewhere already (quite often cheaper, often better quality).'
but go on to say that:
'T£sco would use their large scale distribution centres, etc to sell goods in a Metro store cheaper than elsewhere on the high street'

My view is that the shops that have most to lose would be the chains that already exist (Lidl, Costcutter, Sainsburys - when it opens, Coop, Superdrug). The locally owned shops already have to compete against the big boys - but two new supermarkets on the high street will clearly not help them, unless they sell complimentary goods - rather than trying to compete directly with Lidl, Coop or Tesco.

This doesn't mean that I think another Tesco in Sydenham is a good idea, I'm undecided and not particularly effected either way as I don't shop for groceries in Sydenham.

[Mr_Sheen]

I don't shop there myself but Tesco Express doesn't appear to have hurt Penge. All the shops that were there before Tesco are still there and I don't see rows of boarded up properties.

[JRobinson]

they won't be selling all goods cheaper than elsewhere - just the esentials that bring in the customers.
some of what they sell can be found locally cheaper, or at better quality.

they do use their size to buy goods cheaper, and sell at a loss to attract customers.
They also need to make a profit, so the vast majority of other items are marginally more expensive.

no logical flaw - sorry.

This is a report from Friends of The Earth about T£sco taking over grocery shopping - with the following extract

my bolding

With its enormous share of the grocery retailing market, Tesco can secure low prices and exclusive deals with their suppliers. Their buyer power is considered to be distorting competition to a worrying degree. Londis, the national cornershop brand, has admitted that it is cheaper to buy brands from Tesco and resell them than to get them from its wholesalers, and Musgrave, which owns Budgens, claims that Tesco buys from wholesalers 11.5 per cent cheaper than independent retailers. With its low wholesale prices, the widespread perception that it is a cheap supermarket, its size, range and other amenities such as cafes and car parks, most other local retailers find it almost impossible to compete on what is not a 'level playing' field.

[edit to add] - perhaps people in Penge are not shopping in Tesco, and it is not making a profit, and in a normal situation with any other shop, it would have closed already, but as it is Tesco it can stay open whilst making a loss...? Perhaps there is room in Penge for Tesco, Sainsbury, and all the other shops - We are not Penge. but it's nice to know that there is another Tesco so close if anyone feels the need to shop there (as well the one already on Kirkdale, and the garage near The Horniman)

[another edit] - independent local shops may only be just hanging on, with another supermarket arriving, it could be the tipping point that pushes them over the edge into making a loss, and having to close. Just because they're still open now, does not mean that they won't be open several months after a T£sco arrives.

[hairybuddha]

I admire your determination to take a stand. I am concerned however that there is a lack of veracity in what you are saying:

any large supermarket that opens will allways take custom away from smaller local shops. This is proven.

Is it proven? Can you post the evidence here? The Penge example seems to suggest differently.

cheaper than elsewhere on the high street to the eventual detriment of the local community

Again, what evidence do you have to back this up? Perhaps we shouldn't look too closely into the ethics of some of the products and prices on offer in, for example, PFC. Falafels from Syria anyone? How about some dirt cheap mango from Accra?

Echoing Michael's comments: Make your mind up. Are you against Tesco because they sell things cheaper than everyone else or because everyone else can sell things cheaper than them?

It is often stated that any shop is better than no shop - however in my opinion not when it's T£sco (of JS, Morison, etc, etc)

Not sure you've done your research. Morrisons are an exemplar of how a big business can set itself up ethically and responsibly.

I'd like to see it back as a pub or restaurant.
(maybe a collective real ale, not brewery tied pub?)

Sigh. Really? Does this part of London really need another pub? What with the new Greyhound, The Railway, The Alfred, Dolphin, the place opposite The Dolphin and a revamped Two Halfs. Nothing like variety.

[biscuitman1978]

I don't want to get involved in the moralising about whether Tesco is an ethical business or not, but those on both sides of the argument may be interested to know that planning permission is not typically required to change the use of a building from pub/bar to shop.

In other words, there's no 'in principle' planning reason why Tesco shouldn't open here.

Notwithstanding, a small number of applications have been submitted by Tesco and can be viewed on the planning pages of Lewisham Council's website. They are:

- DC/13/82610 - installation of air condenser units

- DC/13/82611/FT - signage

- DC/13/82613/X - installation of new shopfront

- DC/13/82609/X - installation of ATM

[JRobinson]

I admire your determination to take a stand. I am concerned however that there is a lack of veracity in what you are saying:
Thank you, and I'll try to explain

any large supermarket that opens will allways take custom away from smaller local shops. This is proven.

Is it proven? Can you post the evidence here? The Penge example seems to suggest differently.
yes I think it is proven - in the FotE pdf linked above.
Penge might seem to suggest it to you, but you don't know if local shops lost customers to Tesco - they might all have lost a small number of customers and they might all be on the brink of collapse - I would find it very hard to believe that Tesco had zero impact, and that customers in Tesco in Penge never shopped elsewhere in Penge before it opened.

cheaper than elsewhere on the high street to the eventual detriment of the local community

Again, what evidence do you have to back this up? Perhaps we shouldn't look too closely into the ethics of some of the products and prices on offer in, for example, PFC. Falafels from Syria anyone? How about some dirt cheap mango from Accra?
Again - evidence as linked in the above posted pdf from Friends of the Earth. The ethics of other local shops are not an issue in if we want Tesco to open or not. yes I grant that there may be issues, but they are not important in this debate. Falafels from Syria?! are you having a laugh?! trying to wind me up?

Echoing Michael's comments: Make your mind up. Are you against Tesco because they sell things cheaper than everyone else or because everyone else can sell things cheaper than them?
Huh? - Obviously I'm against them buying in bulk at vastly reduced prices, and selling then selling essentials at below cost price to lure in customers, taking custom from local shops. Tesco pricing is another thing talked about in the FOE pdf - please read it.

It is often stated that any shop is better than no shop - however in my opinion not when it's T£sco (of JS, Morison, etc, etc)

Not sure you've done your research. Morrisons are an exemplar of how a big business can set itself up ethically and responsibly.
No I have not - I stand corrected, I was just putting in names of big supermarkets. Morisons have done well - Tesco however have not

I'd like to see it back as a pub or restaurant.
(maybe a collective real ale, not brewery tied pub?)

Sigh. Really? Does this part of London really need another pub? What with the new Greyhound, The Railway, The Alfred, Dolphin, the place opposite The Dolphin and a revamped Two Halfs. Nothing like variety.

sigh. yes really - I'd like to see another pub there - is that too hard a concept to understand? another pub = more choice, though if it was a Weatherspoons, or a big corporate place that was as 'bad' as Tesco, then I'd object just as vociferously! ... The two halfs did close though, so maybe we have enough pubs. It was just a suggestion of something that isn't Tesco.

I did only just this morning decide on this cause of action. I have not done much research as I'm at work, and I'm surprisingly busy - as I said, a quick search online will find many examples of people not liking Tesco, and shops closing down after a new high Street Tesco, or out of town Tesco. I will do some research over the weekend, and put up some links at some point to 'prove' my earlier points made.

[hairybuddha]

I have read it, and nowhere does it offer evidence to prove:

any large supermarket that opens will allways take custom away from smaller local shops.

or

cheaper than elsewhere on the high street to the eventual detriment of the local community

You are linking to a press release from Friends of The Earth. I can't imagine that they would possibly have a political agenda or be considered partial in any way. Some evidence

[hairybuddha]

p.s yes, seriously. PFC sell (or once did sell) falafel mix from Syria. I know because I bought it and it is was tasty.

[dickp]

One has to wonder why some local residents are prepared to expend vast amounts of energy opposing an new trader whose arrival is pretty much inevitable, but not try to spend the same amount of effort encouraging new traders they do want to come to Sydenham.

Last year over a series of weekends, I toured the local shopping centres of nearby areas, identifying those shops I would love to come to Sydenham. It was a pretty arbitrary list of delis, restaurants, general retailers and the like, but I found just under 200 "nice" independent local businesses between Streatham to the West, Bromley to the South, Herne Hill / East Dulwich to the North, and Catford to the East. Then, I captured those businesses' contact details as far as I was able.

Interestingly, I discovered that some of these businesses were small "local" chains of perhaps two-three shops - just the kind of business that might have the inclination to expand into Sydenham, if they only knew we exist. The Blackbird Bakery, for example, or the Dulwich Trader.

Unfortunately, the project I'm currently bogged down in means I just don't have the time / stamina to contact all of these business in person, and extol the potential of Sydenham in general. So, not to waste my efforts, I gave my list to the Sydenham Society, the Portas team, and Councillor Best.

When this blasted project I'm currently working on ends in the summer, I hope to restart my efforts on this project. But, in the mean time, I'm also happy to share this list with anyone here who wants to devote some time pro-actively encouraging new investment in Sydenham, rather than reactively discouraging it.

Any takers?

[hairybuddha]

It's not a straw man argument Rod. People on here are opposing Tesco coming to Sydenham on some pretty flimsy ethical grounds (failing to acknowledge that Tesco are one of the few companies investing in the UK - investment sorely needed in places like Sydenham - and creating jobs - ditto - in the midst of the worst recession for 90 years) whilst extoling the virtues of places like PFC and, bizarrely, the co-op.

There is an inherent hipocracy in doing so and then refusing to countenance any examination of the ethics of the smaller retailers that they seek to protect (whilst providing no evidence that they need or indeed want protection).

[JRobinson]

DickP - I'd be happy to take a look at that list

HB - I don't like Tesco. I also don't like other large supermarkets that act in similar ways, but Tesco is by far the worst offender. I would be against other large supermarkets opening a small store in this location on our high st. Yes of course FOE have an agenda, but are you suggesting that what they've said in the linked pdf is false?

here below is a short list of links that I found by searching in google for 'shops close due to Tesco opening' - lots of evidence that Tesco is not necessarily a good thing for our high st.

In amongst these articles, there are links to actual evidence to back up what is being said in them, it's not just assumptions, and hearsay.

http://www.businessinpolitics.com/2011/ ... l-economy/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -more.html

http://notesco.wordpress.com/thecampaig ... t-a-tesco/

http://www.tescopoly.org/

http://boycotttesco.wordpress.com/

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/media_bri ... _hurts.pdf

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chest ... -32665993/

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_ ... e-cornwall

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -mice.html

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=255

[leenewham]

Do we want our high street to look like every other one with the same stores selling the same products?

Do we want businesses that will bring people to the area as an attraction or businesses that people use because they are convenient?

Do we want a high street where you know the owners of the store or not?

Do you want shops that care about the area or one that can't even be bothered to fix it's windows like Tesco didn't in Kirkdale or one that ignores the local community and keeps it's cages of rubbish on the pavement like Tesco in Annerly Road?

Are we happy with our high streets going to the highest bidder or do we want a high street that WE want?

Are local traders happy with a Tesco coming here? Are local traders happy with the probably increased rents and rates that brings?

As for ethics, the most Ethical supermarket chain in the UK is The Co-operative, followed by M&S, then Waitrose, Morrisons, Tesco, Sainsbury's and then Asda.
SOURCE:
http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/buyersgu ... rkets.aspx

[dickp]

P.s. JRobinson - I never know if my Sydenham town PMs have actually sent. If you can PM me an email address, I will send you the list.

[JRobinson]

I have read it, and nowhere does it offer evidence to prove:

any large supermarket that opens will allways take custom away from smaller local shops.

or

cheaper than elsewhere on the high street to the eventual detriment of the local community

You are linking to a press release from Friends of The Earth. I can't imagine that they would possibly have a political agenda or be considered partial in any way. Some evidence

Sorry but in my opinion these two things are so blatantly obvious as to not need me to trawl the internet looking for proof, but to prove this...debate on this issue in Lincoln, and this in Merseyside.

But Bobby Chambers, who has run a newsagent in Brickhill, Bedford, says any jobs created by the Tesco Express opening a few doors from him in the old Bird in Hand will be wiped out by job losses elsewhere. "Other shops on the parade won't survive. It's complete overkill. Since the Tesco opened last month our takings have been down 15%-20%. But the likes of Tesco will always win because a small independent can't compete against a multibillion-pound company. If they want, they could sit there for years making a loss while the rest of us go out of business."

from here and

Around a 10th of Britain's smaller convenience stores have closed in the last decade, according to the Association of Convenience Stores. A spokesman for the ACS said: "We're seeing a really aggressive wave of expansion by Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons. We're not saying they shouldn't be given permission, but are they really appropriate in all locations? Local traders don't feel that they get the chance to have a say.

and

Ian Murray MP, Labour's shadow consumer affairs minister, is backing a campaign in his constituency, Edinburgh South, against the opening of a Sainsbury's Local. "We have seen all over Edinburgh how the arrival of the Metros, Expresses and Locals draws the lifeblood out of streets. Sometimes we see them going up either side of the same street. Other stores find it difficult to compete, even though it's not the case that the multiples are any cheaper than local shops. Other shops close down, charity shops move in, and the street's vitality fades away

and there are many more examples!

Are you, HB, a Tesco share holder? or have a vested interest in letting Tesco open a shop that is not needed or wanted at this location? You do appear to sound very much like one!

[leenewham]

I would recommend speaking to the Sydenham Society who can be very useful and effective with opposing planning applications. Even if they disagree with you, they should be able to help advise about the planning process and the most effective ways to oppose such a development on the high street (and it isn't easy when an A1 unit wants to open).

There is a flaw in your logic when you say
'I don't believe that they will offer anything that can't be purchased elsewhere already (quite often cheaper, often better quality).'
but go on to say that:
'T£sco would use their large scale distribution centres, etc to sell goods in a Metro store cheaper than elsewhere on the high street'

My view is that the shops that have most to lose would be the chains that already exist (Lidl, Costcutter, Sainsburys - when it opens, Coop, Superdrug). The locally owned shops already have to compete against the big boys - but two new supermarkets on the high street will clearly not help them, unless they sell complimentary goods - rather than trying to compete directly with Lidl, Coop or Tesco.

This doesn't mean that I think another Tesco in Sydenham is a good idea, I'm undecided and not particularly effected either way as I don't shop for groceries in Sydenham.

[Manwithaview1]

Just ask the owner of RAM in Kirkdale to see what T£sco have done to his shop and yes loads of stuff is cheaper esp alcohol, ciggies, frozen food etc in RAM but the sheeple think T£sco are a good company

[Mazzer]

I'm gutted Tesco are opening here, particularly that they are going to be right next door to the brilliant PFC. It's going to be devastating for them. Count me in on any action necessary to campaign against this.

Marie

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[dantheman]

RAM has upped his game since tesco opened and he now offers better products at more competitive prices so im all for another tesco in the high street, as im sure the majority of residents would agree , good luck to them.

[Mr_Sheen]

I'm gutted Tesco are opening here, particularly that they are going to be right next door to the brilliant PFC. It's going to be devastating for them. Count me in on any action necessary to campaign against this.

Marie

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

It's not though is it? A PFC opened in Penge directly opposite Sainsbury which had been there for years. If they were that worried about direct competition from a huge supermarket don't you think they would've found somewhere further than 30 yards away?