Top 10 favourite pictures contributed by Steve Grindlay!

The History of Sydenham from Cippenham to present day. Links to photos especially welcome!
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Falkor
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Top 10 favourite pictures contributed by Steve Grindlay!

Post by Falkor »

Steve Grindlay is one of the most intelligent guys I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, and also one of the most generous. His contributions to this forum has been absolutely incredible--both information and images! If you check Steve's flickr space, you will see there is now over 400 images available to view:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevegrindlay/
The latest additions include a large series on Sydenham High Street.
I'm very grateful to Steve for sharing all these pictures and information. What I can really appreciate more than anything is the quality of the scans; for example, if you click on the different sizes, one is able to download typical images at around 300-600dpi and zoom right in to any point. Now I know a lot of people would take that for granted. Most collectors I know have what I call a "holding back" mentality because knowledge is power, and their hobby is usually the biggest thing in their life, so it makes them feel superior; atleast that's what I think, although I'm certainly no psychologist. Steve is different; he doesn't mind sharing with us, so, on behalf of the Sydenham Town Forum I would like to say a very big THANK YOU to Steve!
I've put together a selection of my 10 favourite pictures contributed by Steve:

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This is my favourite picture so far that Steve has uploaded! Not only does it show Jews Walk and the original trees that once lined it, but also the first wave of buildings along Wells Park Road, including one of only 2 views of Sydenham Windmill!

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In second place is another painting showing Sydenham Windmill, which stood in the area of Mill Gardens, hence the name. This picture also shows an early view of Halifax Street, the post office (on the left), and The Woodman (before the Victorian facade was added to the front and sides).

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In third place is this early aerial photo, taken from a newspaper article, showing Upper Sydenham before the Wells Park Road North area was re-developed. If you zoom in on the original size image, you can just about make out the generating station and some extinguished roads, as well as the mysterious plot of land beside the wooded gardens of St Mary's Oratory (before Sydenham Hill Estate was built). Running vertically across Wells Park is some kind of early trackway. The view of Crystal Palace Park Road is also quite contrasted. I would love to be proven wrong, but I reckon this might be the only known aerial photo taken of Upper Sydenham before the 1960s--atleast I couldn't find any in Lewisham Local Studies--all Aerial views there were taken post-60 (shortly after Sydenham Hill Estate et all had been developed on this side of Wells Park Road). That's what makes this view so unique and in my Top 10.

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Early photos of Sydenham Road appear to be lacking; there is a number of buildings that survived into the late 19th century without being photographed (it might be worth listing them in a seperate topic). In place of the 7-11 shop (dunno what it's called now) used to stand a building called The Priory. It was demolished quite late on, but sadly no decent photos exist. There was one photo published in the book, Sydenham and Forest Hill Past by John Coulter, but by then half the building--probably in the form of the wings--had been demolished, leaving just the converted central part as some sort of garage premises. Apart from this, no other views are known to exist. I asked Steve about this claim and he agreed, but was still able to produce this slide of the building in question, albeit only available in poor quality (you can just about make out the shape). It just shows how Steve is able to go that little bit further than anyone else in striving for the rarest images and information relating to anything and everything about Sydenham. The Elms, next door to The Priory, was demolished a lot earlier; however, for publication in his book, John Coulter managed to find 2 illustrations of that!

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I remember how shocked I was when Steve first posted this photo! It shows the furniture place that was around before Costcutter and any former buildings, like the Laundrette (refer to older topic for more info), standing in this central part of Kirkdale. On the left can be seen the Woodman (older part of the building at the back).

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Rare photo of the Crystal Palace site, taken from the top of the North Tower. The workmen are posing especially for the camera! Ken Kiss had never seen this particular photo before, so you can bet it's rare, but he did own others from the same series with the same workmen doing their poses; for example, another shows them around the balcony of the tower and maybe inside it.

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Possible remains of the Croydon Canal. Does archaeology ever take place in Sydenham?? Steve might as well be our archaeologist as well as Historian; I think we should all raise some funds to buy him a metal detector for Christmas!

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A rare view of the old Bricklayers Arms before rebuilding--not published in any books I know.

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Rare view of Sydenham Road, showing the cottages to the left. You can just make out the church in the distance--yes, there was once a church or chapel in this part of the high street! A full on view is shown in one of "the books" (you know the ones!), but it's better to see it in perspective with the rest of the buildings IMO.

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A rare photo showing the stable block to one of the Sydenham Hill villas on the corner with Wells Park Road.

Everyone, please post your favourites and tell us what you like about the pictures...
Steve Grindlay
Posts: 606
Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
Location: Upper Sydenham

Post by Steve Grindlay »

Thanks for the plug, Falkor. I ought to explain that, although many of the pictures have been uploaded in response to subjects raised on this forum, others are part of an attempt to answer questions that have come from other sources. For this reason, the point of some of the images might not be clear.

For example, I was contacted recently by someone whose interest is postal history. He had several curious postcards written by "W Reginald Bray", the self-proclaimed "Autograph King". While researching the cards he found <an article I had written on Bray>. My contact has now created a <website devoted to Bray> and we are hoping that this will encourage others to contribute information about him.

The <Boundary Markers> set was in response to a question you asked about boundaries. I uploaded the pictures, but didn't get around to writing about them; boundaries are complicated.

The <A V Allen> and <Sydenham Road> sets were for Kirkdale Bookshop (although I'm not sure that they have seen them yet). They were intended to support the current excellent exhibition of photographs <mentioned by Pat Trembath elsewhere> and reviewed <here>. AV Allen ran a post office (hence the pillar box outside) and stationers from the present Kirkdale Bookshop between 1891 and 1925 and the leaflet was published in about 1914 to celebrate a major refurbishment.
Falkor
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Post by Falkor »

Falkor. I ought to explain that, although many of the pictures have been uploaded in response to subjects raised on this forum, others are part of an attempt to answer questions that have come from other sources. For this reason, the point of some of the images might not be clear.
It's all good... Through your illustrated responses, you're building up quite a nice archive of online materials. Stuart has done an excellent job creating and running this forum! It's amazing how busy it is here and it's also amazing how so many people turned up to Steve's walk advertised from the SE23.com forum. It's just a shame that so few individuals share the same enthusiasm about local history as we do. BTW, Steve, I don't believe you gained all your knowledge about the history of Sydenham by simply working at the Lewisham Local Studies or knowing many locals. It seems to me that you must have studied the general subject of Local History through university courses or reading many books on general records and things? You strike me as the sort of person who could pick any place in England and find out all there is to know about the local history; am I right?
boundaries are complicated.
GOD, TELL ME ABOUT IT! :D I've almost given up hope... I can't find any articles on the subject. From what I gather it goes something like this... Current boundaries could be defined by a postcode map. SE26 includes Crystal Palace Park Road and part of the park. Dartmouth Road is split between SE26 and SE23 (Forest Hill). However, some towns seem to share postcodes, like where I'm living now the boundaries problem seems unsolvable. First question that comes to mind: when did post codes first form, and were they established same time as the various boroughs, hence a connection between the two? Next in history comes Parish boundaries. According to one source mapping the 1910 boundaries, Crystal Palace Park Road and Sydenham Avenue was once part of Beckenham!? I think the boundaries on this map are for districts (same as boroughs?), as the boundary of Sydenham and Beckenham was also the boundary of Lewisham and Bromley, as well as London and Kent, but then Lewisham was also once in Kent according to historical censuses. Of course, now, Bromley is part of Greater London, which is eating up all the other surrounding counties. Next question: how many type of boundaries are there?
*Parish
*District (same as borough?)
*Postcode
*County
Any others?
When were each of these boundary types established? I heard some came into existence during Medieval and even Saxon times? Were Parish boundaries for Sydenham established when St Bart's Church was built and came into use? The aforementioned 1910 map is too low scale to answer questions like:
Is Sydenham Hill entirely in Sydenham or is the west side of the road currently and/or historically in Dulwich? What about Crescent Wood Road?
Some of those boundary stones on Steve's FlickR space show the year 1816, but then I think I remember Steve mentioned this represents the perimeter of somebody's private land!?
The hardest part of all for me, which I'm struggling to understand, is how villages and hamlets fit into all of this, which leaves the final question: How can I trace the history of a town's boundary? Southwark certainly wasn't the same shape in Roman times (although I'm not hoping to go back that far). Can any boundaries be identified on the 1799 OS map? Forest Hill was merely a road and Perry Slough was then a Hamlet! :wink: 1745 Rocques survey? :) Is Sydenham at the center of the Universe?
Anyway, I wouldn't expect Steve to be able to answer all those questions, but it's just so you can see where I'm at and how complicated the whole subject is! Just tell me if I'm on the right track or not?
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