DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
I took this picture on the 17th of May 2012.
As you can see, one of your advertising boards is shown.
I looked on your website but found no reference to any property being for sale or let in this building.
It was still there on Thursday September 7th.
Please take it down. It's way way past the 14 days that it should be up.
I have seen your boards being put up around Sydenham above shops saying that they have been sold or to let (there wasn't one in the spot previously). There is far too much clutter in the high street, much of it by estate agents boards. It would be great publicity for you to take a lead on this by being the first to champion removing estate agents boards from above shops in Sydenham Road and Kirkdale. I'm sure that you would get lots of publicity.
Sydenham is having a lot of money invested in it for high street improvements and the spotlight is on Sydenham because of the Portas Pilot. As locals, if you really do love Sydenham, now is the time to act and remove these awful boards. I'm sure you would rather be part of the solution, not part of Sydenham Roads problem.
Many Thanks,
Regards
Lee
P.S. There is a lot of support for banning estate agents boards completely: http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... nts+boards
P.P.S. If anyone has details of the freeholder of this building, please PM me.
As you can see, one of your advertising boards is shown.
I looked on your website but found no reference to any property being for sale or let in this building.
It was still there on Thursday September 7th.
Please take it down. It's way way past the 14 days that it should be up.
I have seen your boards being put up around Sydenham above shops saying that they have been sold or to let (there wasn't one in the spot previously). There is far too much clutter in the high street, much of it by estate agents boards. It would be great publicity for you to take a lead on this by being the first to champion removing estate agents boards from above shops in Sydenham Road and Kirkdale. I'm sure that you would get lots of publicity.
Sydenham is having a lot of money invested in it for high street improvements and the spotlight is on Sydenham because of the Portas Pilot. As locals, if you really do love Sydenham, now is the time to act and remove these awful boards. I'm sure you would rather be part of the solution, not part of Sydenham Roads problem.
Many Thanks,
Regards
Lee
P.S. There is a lot of support for banning estate agents boards completely: http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... nts+boards
P.P.S. If anyone has details of the freeholder of this building, please PM me.
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
Lee
just to add my own penn'orth really. I agree with you and hope Property World , who it has to be said have been a sponsor of Sydenham Arts Festival , will pull themselves together, and take this down.
I do hope they rise to the challenge of self-policing and remove this without further prompting.
A smart, cared-for high street is in all of our interests , including Property World's.
Good evening
Nigel
just to add my own penn'orth really. I agree with you and hope Property World , who it has to be said have been a sponsor of Sydenham Arts Festival , will pull themselves together, and take this down.
I do hope they rise to the challenge of self-policing and remove this without further prompting.
A smart, cared-for high street is in all of our interests , including Property World's.
Good evening
Nigel
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
I agree Nigel, Property Worlds local sponsorship is to be applauded.
I hope my post comes across as fair criticism on the single point of advertising boards. They are often lauded as very fine estate agents. Property World are held in high esteem locally, that's the reason why it makes it more important for them to take a lead on this. Even better would be a few Estate Agents to act together.
We have consulted with a lot of local councils in London and it's an issue on every high street. Millions are being spent on Sydenham Road for new paving, roundabouts etc, but if other elements such as the visual clutter and signage are not improved then the overall visual effect of those changes will be drastically affected.
I hope my post comes across as fair criticism on the single point of advertising boards. They are often lauded as very fine estate agents. Property World are held in high esteem locally, that's the reason why it makes it more important for them to take a lead on this. Even better would be a few Estate Agents to act together.
We have consulted with a lot of local councils in London and it's an issue on every high street. Millions are being spent on Sydenham Road for new paving, roundabouts etc, but if other elements such as the visual clutter and signage are not improved then the overall visual effect of those changes will be drastically affected.
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
I've used Property World in the past and they didn't collect their sign after frequent requests. They love the free advertising. In the end I had to get rid of it myself
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
It's fair if Property World is a particularly bad offender in this regard. OTOH, if it is being picked on because it is a local firm, supports the Arts Festival, and so ought to know better, then it is not fair, and maybe counter-productive unless Property World are able to put effective pressure on their competitors - which I doubt. Otherwise, it is likely to make them reconsider such community minded behaviour, and deter any other local buisness from community engagement.leenewham wrote:I agree Nigel, Property Worlds local sponsorship is to be applauded.
I hope my post comes across as fair criticism on the single point of advertising boards. They are often lauded as very fine estate agents. Property World are held in high esteem locally, that's the reason why it makes it more important for them to take a lead on this. Even better would be a few Estate Agents to act together.
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
The issue of estate agent boards has nothing to do with being community minded.
The issue of estate agent boards is about the issue of estate agent boards.
So far in this thread they have been called a fine local estate agents and revealed as a major local sponsor of the arts festival, all positive stuff. However, there is one aspect that can be improved, especially at the moment with the impending road improvements. this forum gives people a chance to discuss it, PW get a chance to see what people think and also respond.
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The issue of estate agent boards is about the issue of estate agent boards.
So far in this thread they have been called a fine local estate agents and revealed as a major local sponsor of the arts festival, all positive stuff. However, there is one aspect that can be improved, especially at the moment with the impending road improvements. this forum gives people a chance to discuss it, PW get a chance to see what people think and also respond.
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
As a local business, PW stands to gain if the High st becomes more attractive to shoppers and visitors. It should do its bit and stop defacing the area.
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
But the same goes for all other Estate Agents. Are PW particularly bad?
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
They've even managed to get their name in the banner at the top of this site. They're just geniuses of adververtising
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From Bell Green to Kent House Road they currently have 8 signs above shops, 6 of which are either sold or let. Only 2 out of 8 are for flats that are on the market.
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
Thanks, Lee.leenewham wrote:From Bell Green to Kent House Road they currently have 8 signs above shops, 6 of which are either sold or let. Only 2 out of 8 are for flats that are on the market.
If we are serious about this, could the new Town Team meet with Lewisham Council to discuss how local volunteers could work with Council officers so that if we send them the evidence it will lead to some kind of enforcement? Even an official letter on file will help maintain the pressure. It's what we are already able to do to report fly tipping and grafitti, so it should be possible. We could say that notionally it takes 15 minutes to take a photo and submit it, so one report could earn 1/4 of a Time Credit, such as LB Lewisham is currently pushing? Do you think you could fix up a meeting with any local Councillors who might be interested?
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
Have you tried talking to Property World about it?
They are approachable guys.
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They are approachable guys.
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
To be honest Suzee, I was thinking the same myself. If it annoys you so much why not just go in their shop and ask them to take it down, quoting the relevent regulations. And if the they say they will and don't, go in again. Surely more effective than posting pictures and having meetings.
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
The guys in PW are indeed approachable, and a while back, wondering what scope there was in general for Estate Agents themselves to act co-operatively, I approached Dan, who very simply explained that there was none. Unlike most of us on the Forum, they are playing for real money, and boards bring bucks (sorry about the Americanism - I'll start call them realtors soon ). They will understand that these boards drag an area down, but they face what economists and game theorists call a 'prisoner's dilemma' - it's a very general problem, and the way to break it is to change the incentives for those involved. Even small changes can make a difference, which is why I support Lee's attempt to embarrass PW here, and why I suggest perhaps a bit more pressure from getting official letters written.
"If it annoys you so much" is not fair. You, Simon, may not agree that these boards drag the area down, or you may feel that even if it does, it reveals a suspiciously middle-class NIMBYism, but I certainly think it does, and in this I think I'm with most reasonable opinion, and certainly with what regulations we have in the matter. As argued above, going into PW offices to speak to them would take time, and only achieve a sense of righteous indignation for the true busy-body type who actually gets a kick out of moaning - and this is not Lee, me or anyone else who wants to support our area.
This is simply a matter of enforcement, and this is where we need the Council. Few people like confronting other members of their community to tell them they are doing something wrong, which is why it is best done by professionals, and is why I referred to this very issue in my 'The Public vs. the Community' thread. If there was a system in place to enforce the existing regulations, we'd be better off, with no need for further meetings, about which I am as unenthusiastic as the next person.
The basic problem is that this is not a priority for our Council, and without going into the whole area of what the Council does spend money on, it's hard to say why it should be. We could all probably come up with examples of what we think is less necessary spending - let's hear again, if you like, complaints about senior officers' salaries and Cabinet members' allowances - but that's not going to achieve much.
If the Council is not going to pay for enough enforcement officers - which would be my preferred option - then I think it's reasonable to think about systems which do involve the voluntary efforts of members of the community. But they would have to be fair, which is why my first comment on this thread was to ask if PW was being picked on unfairly. Otherwise we could end up with what seemed like active 'members of the community' conducting bizarre witch hunts against some particular local business. To prevent this, any such system would have to be sponsored in some way by the Council, in the way that the Council set up the system I referred to for us to post pictures of fly-tipping, which then lead through to straight forward job numbers for relevant Council staff - with no unnecessary meetings along the way. The only meetings I would have would be to work out how such a system could work, with possible follow ups to review its working. I think this is something our future Town Centre Team could usefully take up, and I would be happy to contribute.
My reference to time credits was a bit facetious, but one way of looking at them is as a way to encourage volunteering, and I know that Cllr Chris Best is keen on them, and I'd guess is behind the current push on them which I notice from the Council. My views on them are set out here; what's relevant here is that volunteering, by its very nature, doesn't require a specific system of rewards, although sometime some public recognition is nice - so thanks again Lee for all your efforts for the community.
(I was going to do a more general post on the matter of volunteering, with reference to the triumph of the Olympics - how that worked is fascinating, but not for this thread )
"If it annoys you so much" is not fair. You, Simon, may not agree that these boards drag the area down, or you may feel that even if it does, it reveals a suspiciously middle-class NIMBYism, but I certainly think it does, and in this I think I'm with most reasonable opinion, and certainly with what regulations we have in the matter. As argued above, going into PW offices to speak to them would take time, and only achieve a sense of righteous indignation for the true busy-body type who actually gets a kick out of moaning - and this is not Lee, me or anyone else who wants to support our area.
This is simply a matter of enforcement, and this is where we need the Council. Few people like confronting other members of their community to tell them they are doing something wrong, which is why it is best done by professionals, and is why I referred to this very issue in my 'The Public vs. the Community' thread. If there was a system in place to enforce the existing regulations, we'd be better off, with no need for further meetings, about which I am as unenthusiastic as the next person.
The basic problem is that this is not a priority for our Council, and without going into the whole area of what the Council does spend money on, it's hard to say why it should be. We could all probably come up with examples of what we think is less necessary spending - let's hear again, if you like, complaints about senior officers' salaries and Cabinet members' allowances - but that's not going to achieve much.
If the Council is not going to pay for enough enforcement officers - which would be my preferred option - then I think it's reasonable to think about systems which do involve the voluntary efforts of members of the community. But they would have to be fair, which is why my first comment on this thread was to ask if PW was being picked on unfairly. Otherwise we could end up with what seemed like active 'members of the community' conducting bizarre witch hunts against some particular local business. To prevent this, any such system would have to be sponsored in some way by the Council, in the way that the Council set up the system I referred to for us to post pictures of fly-tipping, which then lead through to straight forward job numbers for relevant Council staff - with no unnecessary meetings along the way. The only meetings I would have would be to work out how such a system could work, with possible follow ups to review its working. I think this is something our future Town Centre Team could usefully take up, and I would be happy to contribute.
My reference to time credits was a bit facetious, but one way of looking at them is as a way to encourage volunteering, and I know that Cllr Chris Best is keen on them, and I'd guess is behind the current push on them which I notice from the Council. My views on them are set out here; what's relevant here is that volunteering, by its very nature, doesn't require a specific system of rewards, although sometime some public recognition is nice - so thanks again Lee for all your efforts for the community.
(I was going to do a more general post on the matter of volunteering, with reference to the triumph of the Olympics - how that worked is fascinating, but not for this thread )
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
Alright, Keep your hair on Tim! If you had said you spoken to Dan at PW somewhere in the thread I would not have made my comment.
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We can't legally remove these things ourselves without the building owner's consent. And we'd also run the risk of being liable for any damage we caused to the fabric of the building - these things are nailed on with huge nails. But maybe we could find someday of covering them up? We's need someone with a ladder. I'd be happy to help, but not to climb the ladder, as I have zero head for heights.
I wonder also what the legal situation would be in writing to the estate agent and saying if they don't have them removed we will report them ad abandoned or dumped and we will dispose of them?
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I wonder also what the legal situation would be in writing to the estate agent and saying if they don't have them removed we will report them ad abandoned or dumped and we will dispose of them?
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
I've a fair head for heights, and I have a triple extension ladder. How about you hold it Mary, Lee designs and prints a witty defacement to cover it, I put it up and anyone who wants to takes photos?marymck wrote:We can't legally remove these things ourselves without the building owner's consent. And we'd also run the risk of being liable for any damage we caused to the fabric of the building - these things are nailed on with huge nails. But maybe we could find someday of covering them up? We's need someone with a ladder. I'd be happy to help, but not to climb the ladder, as I have zero head for heights.
I wonder also what the legal situation would be in writing to the estate agent and saying if they don't have them removed we will report them ad abandoned or dumped and we will dispose of them?
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I'm perfectly serious, and would welcome the publicity more than PW - or Chris Best, I'd imagine. However, it would still just be a short term stunt, justifiable only as a way to change Council priorities.
And Simon - my hair is firmly in place, just the opportunity to introduce a bit of game theory to the Forum was too good to pass by
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Yep I'd be up for that. Lee? What do you think?
To be fair to Chris - she has tried with estate agents. I think she's the most hard working of all our local councillors BY FAR. I wish the councillors in my ward would work half as hard as Chris does
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To be fair to Chris - she has tried with estate agents. I think she's the most hard working of all our local councillors BY FAR. I wish the councillors in my ward would work half as hard as Chris does
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Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
Someone sent Property World a link to this discussion, which obviously we are thankful for. I am Dan Crowley, one of the owners of Property World and I would like to respond and join the conversation. I’d firstly like to deal with the specific board in question then go on to make a couple of further points.
The board highlighted by leenewham at the start of the discussion is attached to 8 Station Approach (a large converted warehouse) and currently relates to flat 10, which is a property we have been advertising since late August for rent:
http://www.propertyworlduk.net/property/lettings/4682/ (both on our site and on the major websites such as Rightmove, Findaproperty etc)
We found tenants on Wed of last week and hopefully if everything goes well, the tenants should be moving in at the weekend. In May we let two different flats in 8 Station Approach (there are 14 in total) – so at the time of Lee’s photo the board related to these.
I don't think now is the time to discuss at length why agents erect the boards, whether they work and why they are important but I would like to say that I would have no problem if boards were banned full stop. The fact is however, they aren’t and we work in a very competitive industry and a very competitive area - the boards play an important role in our business and genuinely generate interest for our clients properties. The aim isn’t to “deface” properties but to use every leagal means at our disposal to do what we have been instructed to do.
Our reputation is very important to us, not only because we are business owners but because my brother and I are local residents too. I want to stress that every single board we erect has the explicit permission of either the vendor or landlord, we have actively sought out a board company (agents don't physically erect the boards themselves) who are reliable, trustworthy and are fastidious about not causing any damage whatsoever, we never "fly board" (the practice of erecting boards where the agent does not have a property for sale or rent).
One final point is that we generally rent and sell more properties on the High Street than any other agent and therefore our board presence is disproportionately high in this area. Understandably this is the area most people focus their attention on and so it could appear we are more culpable than others. The truth is, the high street, as the centre of our community is the most visible part of Sydenham and the one where we are the probably the largest agent.
We are very grateful that people in this discussion recognise our contribution to local events and the role we play in the local community - the most visable being the Arts Festival but we also been major contributors or sponsors to the Classical Music Festival, the productions of Spontaneous Productions, The Arts In The Park Family Fun Day, and sponsorship of the Sydenham Squash Team to name but a few. As local business owners and Sydenham residents for over ten years, my brother and I care passionately about the area and share the desire to see Sydenham prosper and improve. We feel part of the local community and take our role in promoting Sydenham seriously.
We have listened to the comments and strength of feeling about the issue of estate agency boards and their impact on our high street. With the improvements to the high street at last about to commence we feel this is the perfect time to take a stand and show our support.
We have decided therefore to introduce an immediate 6 month moratorium on the use on boards above commercial premises on Sydenham Rd (the High St as defined as Cobbs Corner to Bell Green but obviously this will extend up Kirkdale when relevant). All existing boards will be removed and no further boards will be erected (above commercial premises) during this period. We will use the six months to evaluate the commercial impact this decision has had on our business and to also consult with our clients (predominately our major landlords). Some landlords or vendors may feel strongly that a board will assist us in finding a buyer or tenant for their property. If so, this is something we will have to think about and discuss with them. We will obviously explain our decision and hope they agree with us and see the benefit to the wider community. Given the strength of feeling on this issue (on this forum at least) we hope it proves feasible to make our ban permanent.
I hope people appreciate the significance of this decision for us and accept it in the spirit it has been proposed. We are also more than happy to meet up with people to discuss this and indeed any other issue. I would like to add that obviously we aren’t the only estate agent in Sydenham and the removal of our boards isn’t going to fix this entire problem. But we are keen to do our bit and take a lead.
It goes without saying that the boards alone aren’t the only reason the high street looks a little scruffy and it would be interesting to hear peoples views on how we tackle littering, graffiti, dog s**t on the pavement, spitting and some of the other things that can make walking on the high st a depressing experience at times.
dan crowley
The board highlighted by leenewham at the start of the discussion is attached to 8 Station Approach (a large converted warehouse) and currently relates to flat 10, which is a property we have been advertising since late August for rent:
http://www.propertyworlduk.net/property/lettings/4682/ (both on our site and on the major websites such as Rightmove, Findaproperty etc)
We found tenants on Wed of last week and hopefully if everything goes well, the tenants should be moving in at the weekend. In May we let two different flats in 8 Station Approach (there are 14 in total) – so at the time of Lee’s photo the board related to these.
I don't think now is the time to discuss at length why agents erect the boards, whether they work and why they are important but I would like to say that I would have no problem if boards were banned full stop. The fact is however, they aren’t and we work in a very competitive industry and a very competitive area - the boards play an important role in our business and genuinely generate interest for our clients properties. The aim isn’t to “deface” properties but to use every leagal means at our disposal to do what we have been instructed to do.
Our reputation is very important to us, not only because we are business owners but because my brother and I are local residents too. I want to stress that every single board we erect has the explicit permission of either the vendor or landlord, we have actively sought out a board company (agents don't physically erect the boards themselves) who are reliable, trustworthy and are fastidious about not causing any damage whatsoever, we never "fly board" (the practice of erecting boards where the agent does not have a property for sale or rent).
One final point is that we generally rent and sell more properties on the High Street than any other agent and therefore our board presence is disproportionately high in this area. Understandably this is the area most people focus their attention on and so it could appear we are more culpable than others. The truth is, the high street, as the centre of our community is the most visible part of Sydenham and the one where we are the probably the largest agent.
We are very grateful that people in this discussion recognise our contribution to local events and the role we play in the local community - the most visable being the Arts Festival but we also been major contributors or sponsors to the Classical Music Festival, the productions of Spontaneous Productions, The Arts In The Park Family Fun Day, and sponsorship of the Sydenham Squash Team to name but a few. As local business owners and Sydenham residents for over ten years, my brother and I care passionately about the area and share the desire to see Sydenham prosper and improve. We feel part of the local community and take our role in promoting Sydenham seriously.
We have listened to the comments and strength of feeling about the issue of estate agency boards and their impact on our high street. With the improvements to the high street at last about to commence we feel this is the perfect time to take a stand and show our support.
We have decided therefore to introduce an immediate 6 month moratorium on the use on boards above commercial premises on Sydenham Rd (the High St as defined as Cobbs Corner to Bell Green but obviously this will extend up Kirkdale when relevant). All existing boards will be removed and no further boards will be erected (above commercial premises) during this period. We will use the six months to evaluate the commercial impact this decision has had on our business and to also consult with our clients (predominately our major landlords). Some landlords or vendors may feel strongly that a board will assist us in finding a buyer or tenant for their property. If so, this is something we will have to think about and discuss with them. We will obviously explain our decision and hope they agree with us and see the benefit to the wider community. Given the strength of feeling on this issue (on this forum at least) we hope it proves feasible to make our ban permanent.
I hope people appreciate the significance of this decision for us and accept it in the spirit it has been proposed. We are also more than happy to meet up with people to discuss this and indeed any other issue. I would like to add that obviously we aren’t the only estate agent in Sydenham and the removal of our boards isn’t going to fix this entire problem. But we are keen to do our bit and take a lead.
It goes without saying that the boards alone aren’t the only reason the high street looks a little scruffy and it would be interesting to hear peoples views on how we tackle littering, graffiti, dog s**t on the pavement, spitting and some of the other things that can make walking on the high st a depressing experience at times.
dan crowley
Re: DEAR PROPERTY WORLD
*applause*
I hope the other local estate agents follow suit forthwith.
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I hope the other local estate agents follow suit forthwith.
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