The Dartmouth Arms

[perryman]

(I posted this on SE23.com in response to a sub thread question: 'Which is the oldest pub in SE23?', but it might be of interest here)

The Dartmouth Arms, Forest Hill
http://www.thedartmoutharms.com/history.html

The Dartmouth Arms was first licensed in 1815. The original building was approximately on the site of 9 Dartmouth Road (1843 Tithe and 1820). The pub was rebuilt on its present site between 1863 and 1875, the licence transferring in 1866.
(Thanks Steve)

It is thought that the pub was opened to satisfy demand due to the new canal. But who exactly was visiting this pub in 1815 is a mystery to me, as the canal was dry in the summer, and there is no mooring area in any case. Nor any record of a Quay for that matter. There was nothing else in the area in 1815.

So I propose the canal company had the house built, like a lock keepers cottage. Maybe the swing bridge would need supervising; maybe a security presence was required to ensure the barges were not pirated on the common; maybe the canal needed constant checking for leaks here - esp the Davids Road stretch.

Maybe this all partially justified a canal keeper living here. And maybe this canal keeper's wife brewed and sold beer as a side line to the labourers who maintained the canal at this point.

I'm not entirely happy with this dual purpose pub, but a pub alone does not seem viable in 1815 in this location.

[perryman]

What rubbish Perryman!

http://www.pubs.com/pub_history.cfm
"The beer act of 1830 lifted restrictions on the sale and production of beer, leading to an explosion in the number of beerhouses, many literally in someone’s house. The established publicans whose trade was being undermined, improved or even rebuilt their pubs to make them more attractive than the basic beer house."

The beer act may partially explain why the pub was rebuilt in 1863, but it also implies that the earlier pub of 1815 would have been a proper establishment, and not just someone's kitchen. So your idea of some dual purpose building proposal is holed by 15 years!

I propose instead that the pub of 1815 had nothing to do with the canal apart from providing a pleasant view and a beer or 2 for the maintenance crew.

It was the Lewisham enclosure act of 1810 that was the big news then, not a failing canal.
Maybe the pub was a concession to the commoners - you've lost all your rights to the land, but here is a nice pub instead. Enjoy.
Maybe these new enclosers were no longer so welcome in their communities and so met in this new pub surronded by their plots in all senses of the word.

However I think the main purpose of the pub was to attract developers to the area, (it would add substance to the proposals) and it would not surprise me if the pub was subsidised by Lord Dartmouth until the area took off with the coming of the rail 1839.

[Falkor]

BTW, I saw the Dartmouth Arms captioned on an 1820s map.

[Steve Grindlay]

<Here>are a couple of articles from The Times that give clues about the Dartmouth Arms in the years after it first opened. It was clearly a public house, with a bar and till. The original building was one of the earliest to be built on the newly enclosed common. The enclosure was not completed until 1819, but the original Dartmouth Arms appears to have been built, as Perryman says, by 1815 when Gilbert Fownes was granted the first licence. Dartmouth Road had only just been laid out, and was not yet named. Incidentally, when Fownes applied for his licence he had a letter of recommendation from the Vicar of Lewisham who just happened to be the younger brother of the Earl of Dartmouth.

I've also uploaded a plan from the <planning application>for the 1866 building, submitted to the Board of Works in 1864. The quality is not good, but it does show the relationship between the original L-shaped building and the present one.