formally "we was poor, but we was happy" now morphed to usua

[Annie.]

So, I wasnt robbed then! ;0)))

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Voyageur]

I'm with Rod on the baby boomer aspect. My parents are baby boomers and they made the point recently about how lucky they were in terms of retirement age/pension/house affordability etc., etc. compared to us 'kids'.

Back on topic though I think that there are many influences that affect our happiness levels - economic, societal, mental health, upbringing etc. One of my partner's oldest friends is now fabulously rich (IMO) - beautiful house built to spec in 50 acres of land, huge outbuilding to house his fleet of classic and high performance cars, chalets in Switzerland and so on - but he hardly ever goes out and has been depressed for many months. He apparently came from a poor background and nothing is ever QUITE enough to make him feel fulfilled. He has said on more than one occasion that he wishes he had my partner's life, with nowhere near so much wealth but much more fun/fulfilment.

Anyway, I guess the moral of the story is you can be unhappy whether you are rich or poor, and also happy whether you are rich or poor. Simples.

[Robin Orton]

So pleasure, for example would be extraneous to that system?

So is there a qualitive difference between contentedness and pleasure?

'Pleasure' to me suggests something intense and short-lived. For that reason I wouldn't myself want to make it an important criterion for either happiness or well-being, although I suppose if someone never or rarely took pleasure in anything, they' d probably be clinically depressed and to that extent would score badly on well-being.

'Contentedness' is interesting. I suppose it can mean different things in different contexts, but I guess it's something you could ask people about when assessing their well-being - 'On a scale of 1 to 10, how contented are you with your life?' I'd have thought it's quite different from pleasure - it suggests serenity and placidity, rather than passion and excitement.

[Suzee]

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] [/quote]
Suzee, with respect, I never brought up the subject of Gay rights, I do happen to know a few Gay people and would happily fight for their right to live their lives.
so I suppose you could say things have improved from that angle, I was around when there was "queer bashing" not nice at all.
I care very much about other peoples right to live good, honest, peaceful lives,I haven't said otherwise.[/quote]

Fair enough - it's just that you said 'gay rights - doesn't affect me sweetie' and it clearly affects us all.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Tim Lund]

With a non-English speaking workforce, with no union representation, who with a favourable exchange rate uses Western Union Money Transfer to send wages back to Poland or Nigeria and lives in all sorts of conditions which we might not find acceptable; And what we have is a modern form of colonialism. Except this time, the colonialists import their labour and earn vast bonuses on the back of their labour.

The excuse that is always trotted out is that these people are doing the work the British are too lazy to do. The reality is that they cannot afford to do it.

You're right about our seeing 'colonial' exploitation here in our own cities, rather than in some remote corner of Empire - not that it's not still happening, and even worse, in those other parts of the world. I also think trade unions should be part of the solution - workers need independent organisations to argue for them. But while it's not exactly diplomatic to say 'the British are too lazy', the fact remains that many foreign workers will do more for less, or in worse conditions, than British workers - simply because of what we / they are used to.

I think the key to this is what you write about 'favourable exchange rates'. The value of developed world currencies still reflect our much greater historic productivity; an hour of a British or other West European worker say 20 years ago really was worth may 10 times that of someone in Africa or the former Soviet blok. But thanks to investment and rising standards of education around the world, this is no longer true. Some things have to change, and exchange rates will be one of them. It's the point I made in response to Eagle on the 'How should the UK default' thread.

I don't accept his conclusion that we should stop immigration; rather we should recognise that our currencies will depreciate to the extent that it's their teenagers who'll be coming on gap years over here in future generations, rather than the other way round - and our young people facing discrimination over there as economic migrants. Not exactly the end of the world, just needs a bit of swallowed pride.

[Eagle]

Rod
So just because minimum wage is paid you are saying British people should not go for these jobs.

So your solution is to leave a generation on the Dole.

Rightly or wrongly this is the new world we live in and we cannot afford to have millions of Britons doing nothing whilst plenty of jobs for immigrants.

The Government wants to get tough and refuse dole to those who do not try or turndown jobs.

[Robin Orton]

For the life of me I cannot think of the benefit of having an uneducated African workforce in this country. Could there ever be any reason other than exploitation?

Uneducated? Most of the Africans I meet around here seem very well educated. They accept however that economically they are better off doing comparatively unskilled work here than trying in vain to find work appropriate to their qualifications in their home countries. And I don't see how we are 'exploiting' them by letting them come to this country (to the extent that we do) to better themselves economically.

And, to be honest, if we can do something NOW to avoid a situation where we ourselves are exploited labour in other parts of the world in 30 years time, shouldn't we do it? This globalization scam IS optional. We just need the protectionist policies to avoid it.

Free movement of labour is likely, other things being equal, to increase overall prosperity. Again, in what sense am I being exploited if I move to a country where my skills are more in demand (and better rewarded) than they are here?

[Eagle]

Or withdraw the Dole ,Rod.


The Dole is a gift that society generously gives to those who through no fault of their own cannot get employment.

[CaptainCarCrash]

Or withdraw the Dole ,Rod.


The Dole is a gift that society generously gives to those who through no fault of their own cannot get employment.

What like during the worst double dip recession for over 50 years?

[Robin Orton]

This thread has now got completely beyond me. I give up.

[Robin Orton]

Sometimes threads move in unexpected directions.

Not wholly unexpected - whatever the original topic, one can guarantee that before long we are going to be invited to talk about benefit scroungers.

[Eagle]

Someone implied cannot withdraw dole in a recession.

Whole point not a recession for foreign workers who have and are flooding here. Native people need to apply and get these jobs.

[CaptainCarCrash]

Not wholly unexpected - whatever the original topic, one can guarantee that before long we are going to be invited to talk about benefit scroungers.

Nice to see you've noticed Robin.

It's amazing how almost every subject does this, It's very one dimensional.

[Eagle]

Sorry about being predictable folks

I believe it was Rod who raised the matter of immigrants getting all the lower paid jobs. However no problem life is to short.

[Tim Lund]

There is no benefit to the country of immigration other than cheap labour. If you can name one I'd be interested?

Remind anyone of Life of Brian?

Here are my rather random starters for three

• Kings and Queens - bloody foreigners keep coming over here, and end up passing themselves off as English. Throw off the Norman yoke, I say!
• The Brunels - Marc gave us the first Thames tunnel, Isambard went on the the Great Eastern, the GWR, etc.
• Most decent restaurants - Indian, Italian, you name it. Not that I have anything against Lyon's Corner Cafés or Betty's of Harrogate.

So, all right, but apart from the monarchy, the railways, shipping and reasonable places to eat, what have decently paid foreigners ever done for us?

[Eagle]

It was Rod who attacked immigrants.

I think immigrants through the centuries have made a great contribution to our sceptered isle.

problem is now the sheer volume ( each year probably more than the total germanic invasions of post Roman Era )

Also we have min 3 million plus unemployed who cannot get jobs because the immigrants are cornering many occupations. I know they tend to me more articulate , smile more and prepared to work hard , but the country cannot carry on like this.

Very sad but something has to give otherwise in 10years time you will face maybe 6 or 8 million native Britons unemployed.

I know some will consider the above remarks offensive but I think the Politicians are even starting to admit this is a major problem.

[Tim Lund]

It was Rod who attacked immigrants.

I know. I don't agree with your view on immigration, but I think it's more reasonable than Rod's

I think immigrants through the centuries have made a great contribution to our sceptered isle.

Of course they have - and I might say some of those wicked English imperialists made significant contributions to the places they colonised. Hope Mikecg will forgive me saying this ...

problem is now the sheer volume ( each year probably more than the total germanic invasions of post Roman Era )

Also we have min 3 million plus unemployed who cannot get jobs because the immigrants are cornering many occupations. I know they tend to me more articulate , smile more and prepared to work hard , but the country cannot carry on like this.

Very sad but something has to give otherwise in 10 years time you will face maybe 6 or 8 million native Britons unemployed.

I know some will consider the above remarks offensive but I think the politicians are even starting to admit this is a major problem.

I agree that this problem will get worse, and resentment of foreigners is very likely to increase. But blaming immigrants is like shooting the messenger - and the message they are telling us is that we have become uncompetitive . There's a quick way and relatively painless way to become more competitive - devalue the exchange rate. There's another way, which is far from painless which has the same effect - cut wages; it's something like this that Greece, Portugal, Spain are being asked to accept, because they've refused option 1. But neither is anything like as helpful as the long run solution, raising productivity, which depends on improving education. See my posting 'Investing in Education'. I might add that I'd include learning to smile more at customers, even foreigners, and not snarling at them as an essential part of education. As well as learning foreign languages, maths, science and economics. Some history too helps give some perspective.

[Eagle]

Tim
Many valid points.

Not sure about English imperialists being singled out as the Scots were more active in Empire , especially on the commercial side.
If we are going back to Empire we of course can look back to when we were exploited by
Rome , Germanics , Viking and Danes and Normans plus many others.
Your idea to educate all these unemployed and potential unemployed in the future is great but cannot see many of them wanting further education. Hopefully I am wrong.

Devaluation is not ideal and after a few years often required again and again. We need someone to buy our devalued goods who are not buying them now.
Also so many of our manufactured goods have imported components the benefits are not that clear.

You seem to accept unless something is done the unemployed natives will grow sizeably . Not sure about yours of any solutions and also I agree reducing immigration difficult and many of them contribute significantly to our society.
One thing for certain we cannot from year to year pay out for more and more people who many have no intention of trying for some of jobs which usually go to immigrants.

Wasted Generations .

[marymck]

I started this thread as a light hearted but positive piece on nostalgia - having been driven from other threads by tit for tat sniping and ponderous lectures on economics. Now this has gone the same way. I sodding give up.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Voyageur]