Religious Rappers on the High Street

[Robin Orton]

Out of curiosity, I had a look at Mr Bernard Muller's http://historical-jesus.info/, as recommended by Manwithaview1. Incredibly user-unfriendly - I looked in vain for a summary of his conclusions. But then I came across this on the home-page and realised I needn't bother:

It took me three years doing research on the history of (very) early Christianity.[...]
My approach, as an investigative and critical historian, will appear radically new. The research was not based on studying extensively scholarly works; but instead by inquiring about contextual facts, scrutinizing primary sources, getting free from past indoctrinations and, above all, doing a lot of thinking. Never interested in learned opinions, lofty intellectualism, slick or bullying rhetoric, agenda-driven "studies" or ill-validated theories, I strived to discover the bottom of things, the facts and the bare truth, as naive as it may sound.

Three years research (yes, three whole years!) by a retired electrical engineer(see the link to 'the author's story')! Totally undistracted by any boring and irrelevant training in history, ancient languages or theology! That's why he was able heroically to overturn two hundred and fifty years of stuffy scholarly enquiry into the historical Jesus and the history of the early church - not that he bothered to read any of it anyway!

Given a choice between Mr Muller and the happy-clappies, I know who I'd rather believe.

[leenewham]

What about between a retired electrical engineer and a 2000 year old carpenter…

…who never kept any records of what he said but was reported to think his dad was god, a man who apparently made us in his image even though we all look different, had invented all things bright and beautiful, including the world in 7 days…in the dark. For such a great man I'd have though he would, at the very least, he'd have nudged us in the direction of a better means for recording events and spreading the word than carving some words in stone. How about a printing press? Although looking back in it, the internet would have been better. Now that would have been a miracle. But instead he made it rain and got some bloke to build a boat and stick a zoo on it in the hope that it might make us change our ways. Perhaps if we weren't so impressed back then by forest fires or the tide going out we might have got a better standard of miracle for Charlton Heston to act out.

I know which one I'd believe.

(Apologies Robin, I couldn't help myself, you know it's written with a smile).

[CaptainCarCrash]

There was no Jesus.

Aliens did it.

[Robin Orton]

Ah, right. What an elegant solution!

[JulietP]

What about between a retired electrical engineer and a 2000 year old carpenter…

…who never kept any records of what he said but was reported to think his dad was god, a man who apparently made us in his image even though we all look different, had invented all things bright and beautiful, including the world in 7 days…in the dark. For such a great man I'd have though he would, at the very least, he'd have nudged us in the direction of a better means for recording events and spreading the word than carving some words in stone. How about a printing press? Although looking back in it, the internet would have been better. Now that would have been a miracle. But instead he made it rain and got some bloke to build a boat and stick a zoo on it in the hope that it might make us change our ways. Perhaps if we weren't so impressed back then by forest fires or the tide going out we might have got a better standard of miracle for Charlton Heston to act out.

I know which one I'd believe.

(Apologies Robin, I couldn't help myself, you know it's written with a smile).

The only possible response to that is C.S. Lewis:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse.

[Robin Orton]

The trouble with Lewis's argument is that on the face of it - I can't remember the context - it assumes uncritically that Jesus actually did 'claim to be God'. Many Biblical scholars, using the sort of criteria which scientific historians would accept, would, I think, argue that he probably didn't. They would claim that the texts in the New Testament which suggest he did are products of later theological reflection on the part of the early Church during the period of (at least) thirty years or so between the 'Easter event' and the time the Gospels were first written down.

[Tim Lund]

Out of curiosity, I had a look at Mr Bernard Muller's http://historical-jesus.info/, as recommended by Manwithaview1. Incredibly user-unfriendly -

You might you find this a little bit more user-friendly

... I came across this on the home-page and realised I needn't bother:

It took me three years doing research on the history of (very) early Christianity.[...]
My approach, as an investigative and critical historian, will appear radically new. The research was not based on studying extensively scholarly works; but instead by inquiring about contextual facts, scrutinizing primary sources, getting free from past indoctrinations and, above all, doing a lot of thinking. Never interested in learned opinions, lofty intellectualism, slick or bullying rhetoric, agenda-driven "studies" or ill-validated theories, I strived to discover the bottom of things, the facts and the bare truth, as naive as it may sound.

Three years research (yes, three whole years!) by a retired electrical engineer(see the link to 'the author's story')! Totally undistracted by any boring and irrelevant training in history, ancient languages or theology! That's why he was able heroically to overturn two hundred and fifty years of stuffy scholarly enquiry into the historical Jesus and the history of the early church - not that he bothered to read any of it anyway!

Some fair points, Robin, but a training in history and ancient languages - even theology could well have produced the same scepticism. Not to mention anything as crude and unsophisitcated as modern science.

[Robin Orton]

[...] a training in history and ancient languages - even theology could well have produced the same scepticism. Not to mention anything as crude and unsophisitcated as modern science.

Of course. The only point I was trying to make is that the question of Christian origins is (like many other interesting issues, in all sorts of different areas of human enquiry) a difficult, complex and highly technical one. I believe we amateurs should show a certain humility before noisily claiming to have discovered all the answers, even if, like Mr Muller, we've 'done a lot of thinking'.

[14BradfordRoad]

There's nothing like a bit of street entertainment and it's all free too!

[stuart]

Some fair points, Robin, but a training in history and ancient languages - even theology could well have produced the same scepticism. Not to mention anything as crude and unsophisitcated as modern science.

Depends what you mean by theology Tim/Robin. Most definitions accept that theology presupposes that God exists. If the existence of 'God/Son of' is the issue then theology brings little to the party.

When it comes to establishing the existence of the christian God & Jesus - most people would regard the Bible as the major if unreliable historical source. I found the FT Gardening Correspondent's guide to how far we could trust it quite useful and a good read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Truth-Fiction-B ... 0679744061

Comments Robin?

Stuart

[Tim Lund]

I can but agree, Stuart. This other Robin - Lane-Fox - is a great writer, and I have a couple of his books - Pagans and Christian & The Unauthorised Version. The point about theology is that some 'liberal' theologians have thought deeply enough about the subject that they have come to a similar conclusion to this retired electrical engineer. Which would you say has wasted most time, unless you think the point of such study is mainly to pass muster as sophisticated and educated? Give me the crude and insightful every time - three cheers for Tom Paine and "The Age of Reason"!

[Eagle]

Was not Tom Paine a bankrupt who escaped this country to spread lies in the colonies and later France.
There is one reason to celebrate TP . A lovely beer brewed for July by Harvey's .