Building dates (Perry, Bell Green) - please help!!

[Falkor]

I'm working on a database, and would appreciate some help with building dates, ie. the year of building or rough period of building.

Need rough period
Bargrove Crescent
Bell Green
Bell Green Lane
Bromley Road
Castlands Road
Catford Hill
Elm Lane
Perry Rise
Perry Vale
Porthcawe Road
Southend Lane
Stanton Way
Sydenham Road

Genand Crofte and Costumes
Perry Hill Farm
White House Farm
Bird's Cottages
Brongers and Nutgrove Hall
Crooked Billet
Hope Lodge
Swanley (does this house have a number?)

Need a more accurate period/year if possible
Creeland Grove Late 1860s
Perry Hill Early 1400s

Gothic Cottage - Mid 1790s
Laurel Brook - Early 1800s
Orchard House - Mid 1600s
Perry Vale Farm - Early 1790s
Sydenham Brewery (2nd building) - Mid 1880s
Unknown Cottage (built on Perry Green, Perry Hill) - Late 1700s
White Hart - Late 1600s

Bell alehouse - bef 1720
Orchard Cottages - bef 1843
Place House - bef 1331
Sydenham Brewery (first building) - bef 1655
Sydenham Farm - bef 1822

Need a more accurate year if possible
Bell - c1843
Clare Lodge - c1759
Dartmouth Lodge - c1787
Meadowcroft - c1830
Meadowcroft outbuilding (does this house have a number?) - c1830
Montague Cottage - c1741
Rose Cottage - c1774
The Elms - c1790
The Two Brewers - c1744
Unknown Cottage (built on waste ground fringing Perry Hill) - c1724
Woodville Cottage - c1741

Need confirmation of accuracy
Bell Green Gasworks - 1853
Claremont - 1804
Manor House - 1728
Perry Hill House - 1766
Walmer House - 1856

I realise it may be impossible to know certain building dates, particularly when roads were first laid, but perhaps Steve might know 1 or 2 dates (or could take an educated guess). I also welcome any corrections.

[Steve Grindlay]

I'm working on a database, and would appreciate some help with building dates, ie. the year of building or rough period of building.

This sounds like a good idea, but each road presents its own challenges. Before 1855, there was no such thing as an official street name. Roads, generally, only had a name because that was how the people who lived there chose to refer to it, and they often used different names and different spellings.

It was widely regarded as an erosion of personal freedom when, in 1855, the Metropolitan Board of Works was given powers to name streets and number houses. Householders, it was claimed, were losing the right to decide what their own addresses should be. In 1889 these powers were passed to the London County Council who conscientiously set about renaming streets in order to avoid duplication and confusion. The LCC also published a series of books called Names of Streets and Places in the Administrative County of London. These are an important source for understanding the history of street names, and Local Studies has the 1927 and 1955 editions. Another useful book is Read about Lewisham Street Names by Joan Read (1990), also held by Local Studies. Then there are council minutes and planning records.

I know why you’re interested in Bargrove Crescent. The road is entirely modern, it was created in the 1960s, but it is close to the site of Place House. This is the 1971 OS map, with Place House superimposed where I believe it was.

<Here> is a series of maps I copied a few years ago, with a view to working out the exact position of Place House.

Bell Green Lane is also interesting. The name itself is modern; the LCC assigned it in 1937. However, the lane is much, much older. Before 1937 the entire road from Bell Green to the junction with Kent House Road was called Kent House Lane. Before Kent House Road itself was laid out in about 1868 Kent House Lane continued (on the line of Kent House Road) towards Beckenham. The name comes from a house, built about 1240, called Kent House (on the east side, before the junction with Lennard Road). For centuries what is now Bell Green Lane was merely a footpath, winding between fields to Kent House, and on to Beckenham.

[Falkor]

This sounds like a good idea, but each road presents its own challenges.

Thanks! One feature of my database is the Connection Table, linking together all roads, showing the various possible routes throughout sydenham, including shortcuts on foot, ie. Elliot Bank into Thorpewood Avenue, as well dead connections, ie. Perry Hill to Bromley Road, although it might still be possible from the bottom of Castlands Road. Anyway, part of what I'm working on is sort of like a Walkabout Planner. Another feature is to run queries on the data, in order to work out, say, the top 10 oldest buildings in chronological order.

Before 1855, there was no such thing as an official street name. Roads, generally, only had a name because that was how the people who lived there chose to refer to it, and they often used different names and different spellings.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that. Fortunately, I've included an AKA field under each road/street. Here's some examples of entries so far:

Elm Lane
AKA
Sabin's Lane

Bell Green Lane
AKA
Low Lane
Kent House Lane
Verey's Lane

Orchard Cottages
AKA
Ox Head Place
Orchard Place

Perry Vale
AKA
Perry Slough
Perry Slow

<Here> is a series of maps I copied a few years ago, with a view to working out the exact position of Place House.

Interesting... I did a similar exercise, and it took me a while to work out where Place House once stood, but I sussed it in the end! The book shows illustrations of the East, West and South of the building, which had a very curious design. Being such a grand building, it eventually became easy to pin down on the maps. Looking at your series of maps, you are actually missing the most important one! The 1745 map was surveyed before the southern end of the building was demolished, and you can actually see the original shape of place house. It's a bit like a triangle shape, and those illustrations reveal a lot of details. Shame it's no longer standing... Looking at those series of maps, we can prove it stood until the 1860s as described in the account from the family connected with the Two Brewers; no way it was demolished in c1809. BTW, have you got that image of Place House, but without the crease in the middle? I asked John where he got most of those illustrations from, but I think they must come from his private collection or some remote part of the studies centre. Sydenham and Forest Hill Past just has to be the best local history book ever written on any area. It's a big improvement over Lewisham History and Guide with bigger illustrations and more info. I remember you said you contributed bits and pieces? I think John and yourself must be two of the best historians in the country. I was telling the Bromley librarian that they should get somebody from Sydenham to study and write a book on the history of St. Mary Cray, as the current publications are sadly inadequate, and there's hundreds upon hundreds of photos available. Again, Sydenham and Forest Hill Past is really a remarkable piece of work and should win an award for best reference material of last century. John could do a book on London. But still, saying that, thanks to Steve Grindlay, I've gained an incredible amount of *new* information about Sydenham not covered in the book, including many new photos/illustrations/paintings. We've had some great discussions on this forum about the history of sydenham, particularly upper sydenham, and I hope we can continue to have them.

Anyway, back to the topic. Cheers for the street info... Did you once say you had worked on a database, yourself, Steve? How easy would it be for you to cross-reference some of those dates above? I know you like to concentrate a lot on the social history, including tenants etc. With your help, I could feature people in my database, including tenants and architects, but right now I'm concentrating on places. Some are proving extremely difficult to find on maps, like Sydenham Farm + cottages and Bird's Cottages. I'm not very good at Perry/Bell Green area, so it's also a learning experience for me, although this is all very time consuming. More later...

[Steve Grindlay]

The book shows illustrations of the East, West and South of the building [Place House], which had a very curious design. Being such a grand building, it eventually became easy to pin down on the maps.

The <Guildhall Library Print Room> has the pictures of Place House, although searching is not straighforward. For example, to find Place House you must enter "Beckenham" and for other Sydenham pictures you also have to search for "Lewisham".

Looking at your series of maps, you are actually missing the most important one! The 1745 map...

Sorry... I've uploaded it now.

Sydenham and Forest Hill Past is really a remarkable piece of work and should win an award

I agree, and it is only when you read closely that you realise just how much detailed information had been included.

Did you once say you had worked on a database, yourself, Steve?

Yes, and I'm continually adding to it. This is an example of what it contains:

It has over 35,000 records taken from more than 200 sources. One day I plan to make it public, but it needs a lot more work and considerable tidying-up before then.

[Falkor]

Impressive database, Steve! I've taken the boring stamp collectors approach to designing mine, as I'm only interested in dates and places. I wasn't impressed to find out that Sirrrr George Grove lived in Lower Sydenham or WC Grace in Lawrie Park Road, as I've never shared the common fascination with celebrities, television, or the media. No doubt they were successfull people in their own right and should be commended for their achievements, but you wouldn't see me bowing down to the queen or kissing her hand if I had the opportunity to meet her. I would just treat her equally like I treat every other human being I come into contact with. Put me in the Big Brother house, and I'll become a celebrity myself.

I'm starting to understand what interests me about local history. I'll try and explain it to the reader. BTW, if you got this far through my dogmatic reply then you deserve a medal! Exercise is a very important part of my life right now. Walking is the best form of exercise (you can argue with me about this later). I walk every weekend from Crystal Palace to Catford, and to make it as interesting as possible, it's important to have good knowledge of the roads, buildings and various routes. I can walk down a street, and see everything in a new light. I can imagine the common, canals and churches that once graced the land around me. I become one with the environment. I feel less insecure about my surroundings; for example, after hearing about the muggings at the top of Wells Park Road, I've since avoided a large gang of youths one evening by deviating from my original planned route. I could have even taken them on a wild goose chase through Sydenham Hill Woods if needed, and I doubt anyone would have caught me in the dark. I reckon I could walk the streets blindfolded, taking random turns, and still end up in Catford!

At the end of the day, my health is improving, and I'm losing weight. I never enjoyed walking from Savacentre to Grove Park, so I used to always lazily catch a bus. Even if I had researched Southend lane, it would make no difference, as it has no history beyond Sydenham. So that gives you some idea of why I enjoy studying local history--particularly of Sydenham. Having been brought up in 3 different houses in this area, nostalgia also plays a part.

Remember, exercise is the key! Everything else should come 2nd...

[Falkor]