Begging in Sydenham Road

[love-sydenham]

We had this discussion with our neighbours on Sunday..Before even seeing this thread going on forum!!
Both them and me were approached on several occasions, by the same woman with a ponytail (they were also approached by a man too)!
I do not feel comfortable when it happens, It does not make me feel relaxed using the highstreet, or walking home in the evening!

[alywin]

If that means TfL lose revenue Simon, you are stealing money from the rest of us!
Stuart

It does not mean 'stealing' anything. It might possibly mean depriving TFL of another fare in rather the same way as it might if you offered someone a lift in a car instead of them taking the train.

As far as I'm aware, day Travelcards - unlike the season ticket variety, but like one-day bus passes - are fully transferable, so you can let someone else in your household, or a complete stranger if you like, use them. Ditto with the ones loaded on Oyster cards, but I don't imagine anyone would be happy handing their Oyster over to someone they didn't know and trust. What you aren't allowed to do is re-sell them. If I get a paper ticket, it's always with a Network Card discount, which means that nobody else can use it without a Network Card, so I can't hand mine on anyway.

[hazy]

slightly off-subject but now i'm wondering - when i give my pay & display parking ticket with 50 mins remaining to a random stranger who has just arrived in the car park am i committing an offence? legally or morally?

[leenewham]

Morally, as far as I am concerned, it's time you bought, if you want to give it to someone else, then so be it. If it buy a CD, listen to it once and give it to someone else it's not an office.

[Rachael]

Except in those car parks where you have to enter the registration of your car. That implies the time is applied to the vehicle, not the person paying. I have no idea if wardens check the reg details on tickets and if they do, what they do if they don't match.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[bensonby]

"Giving" is not "trading" bensoby. I would be happy to be prosecuted, have my day in court and argue that point. I will continue to give my travel card away when I no longer have any use for it.

You can argue the point all you like: the case law that I quoted is very clear.

I'm not arguing that this is morally the right or wrong situation: I'm merely pointing out the law.

nb. it would never go to jury trial.

It did. In the 1990s, and it went to the appeal court. That's why there is case law on the subject!

[bensonby]

As far as I'm aware, day Travelcards - unlike the season ticket variety, but like one-day bus passes - are fully transferable, so you can let someone else in your household, or a complete stranger if you like, use them.

I've just had a re-read of the conditions of carriage (that everyone agrees to when they buy a railway ticket) and I can't find anything to suggest that Travelcards are any different to any other kind of ticket (i.e. non transferrable - see condition 6).

If you want to browse them then there is a copy here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/ga ... /NRCOC.pdf

[14BradfordRoad]

I'm also a bit confused with this one!
My big question is: Am I not allowed to buy a travel card for another person then?

What will I not be allowed to do next?

[CaptainCarCrash]

I'm also confused with this one!
My big question is: Am I not allowed to buy a travel card for another person then?

What will I not be allowed to do next?

It's not that you are not allowed to buy someone a travel card, it's that if in the evening you get back to your home station you're not allowed to pass it on to anyone.

There was a problem with homeless people collecting them and selling them on a few years ago so they created a law to stamp on it.

I have given my travel card away in the past but with the under current knowledge that I'm taking money away from the Dick Turpin's of public transport and that's why they have made it illegal. It's to do with poor people taking a very small advantage and TBTB can't really put up with that sort of thing now can they?

[14BradfordRoad]

I'm also confused with this one!
My big question is: Am I not allowed to buy a travel card for another person then?

What will I not be allowed to do next?

It's not that you are not allowed to buy someone a travel card, it's that if in the evening you get back to your home station you're not allowed to pass it on to anyone.

There was a problem with homeless people collecting them and selling them on a few years ago so they created a law to stamp on it.

I have given my travel card away in the past but with the under current knowledge that I'm taking money away from the Dick Turpin's of public transport and that's why they have made it illegal. It's to do with poor people taking a very small advantage and TBTB can't really put up with that sort of thing now can they?

Thanks for explaining Mike. I suppose in this age of austerity this nasty type of crime
must be stamped out at all costs. Don't forget 'We are all in this together' (not)..

[bensonby]

made a mess of formatting: see post below.

[bensonby]

I can't find anything in the terms and conditions that relates to this;

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/ga ... /NRCOC.pdf

Can you be more specific about the case law?

The condition that says you can't transfer tickets is under condition 6. The caselaw is here: http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

It's not that you are not allowed to buy someone a travel card, it's that if in the evening you get back to your home station you're not allowed to pass it on to anyone.

There was a problem with homeless people collecting them and selling them on a few years ago so they created a law to stamp on it.

I have given my travel card away in the past but with the under current knowledge that I'm taking money away from the Dick Turpin's of public transport and that's why they have made it illegal. It's to do with poor people taking a very small advantage and TBTB can't really put up with that sort of thing now can they?

The (moral) rights and wrongs aside you are factually incorrect about the (legal) situation. The law is not a "new" one, this was not created as a specific offence, it is the simple offence of theft - within the meaning of the Theft Act 1968 - and was affirmed by a jury under the standard "Ghosh Test".

[giorgio_ne]

If I have a paper day travelcard that I no longer need I will still pass it on to my wife, children, best friend or whoever I want, at no charge.

The exchange of money, on the other hand, was the pivotal point of the court case against Marshall, Coombes and Eren that Bensonby brought to our attention.

By reading the notes on the court case it transpires that those accused were not the people who gave the tickets away but those who tried to re-sell them to other passengers. It is the act of achieving a financial profit from a used ticket that is considered a crime, not the act of gifting it to someone.

[CaptainCarCrash]

The (moral) rights and wrongs aside you are factually incorrect about the (legal) situation. The law is not a "new" one, this was not created as a specific offence, it is the simple offence of theft - within the meaning of the Theft Act 1968 - and was affirmed by a jury under the standard "Ghosh Test".

When you're all outsourced to OCP it probably wont matter any way as we'll get shiny new Robocops to argue the toss with.

[14BradfordRoad]

When you're all outsourced to OCP it probably wont matter any way as we'll get shiny new Robocops to argue the toss with.

In the film I saw (a few years ago now) Robocop turned very nasty and actually became very corrupt!
Something to do with fencing Travel Cards to gang members, or did I just imagine that bit?

[Rachael]

So is it illegal to go with someone to a ticket machine and buy them a ticket or a travel card?.

Only if you both use the card.

I've given a one day card to family members in the past, if I was finished with it. I never thought about it being illegal, but thinking about it, there was always the sense of getting somethinng for free. So my moral compass always gave a little twitch, but never swung right round to point at 'WRONG'.

I should think with the advent of Oyster cards there are far fewer paper tickets to pass around.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[alywin]

I've just had a re-read of the conditions of carriage (that everyone agrees to when they buy a railway ticket) and I can't find anything to suggest that Travelcards are any different to any other kind of ticket (i.e. non transferrable - see condition 6).

"It may not be resold or passed on to anyone else unless (my emphasis) this is specifically allowed by the terms and conditions which apply to that ticket"

I think the T&Cs specifically do allow it, but haven't read them for some time, admittedly. The Day Travelcard I bought yesterday specifically says "Not for resale". It doesn't say "not transferable", whereas my late lamented season ticket does.

[alywin]

I should think with the advent of Oyster cards there are far fewer paper tickets to pass around.

No, you just pass the Oyster around instead. That *is* permitted, provided it's a general Oystercard and not a season, and that not more than one of you is trying to use it at a time.

[CaptainCarCrash]

[Eagle]

This is not a promising devolpment.

Sydenham used to be respectable..

There is NO excuse for begging or in reality asking for money with menaces in this country.
If you are out of work you should have benefits.

The Police should stamp down as very threatening to many ladies and older people