Forest Hill Elisnore Road Incident Meeting

[CaptainCarCrash]

I only speak from experience Julie,

How do I know this to be true.

My sister married a police officer who was all of those things and more. He beat and starved her and threw her into a boiling bath, the trauma caused was so much so that she has never recovered.

But I agree this was an isolated incident and not the norm.

I must also say that I'm not bias, I have friends who are police officers and are caring decent people. I've worked for most of the police constabularies in the country including The Met, Kent and Manchester. I support them in their tough and sometimes thankless task but we must remember that it is their job to enforce the law, that does not make them exempt because they are emblossomed with it's insignia.

[michael]

What a lot of discussion on the subject in the last couple of hours. All from people who were not at the meeting that was occurring at the same time for the community to hear a bit more information from the Police and the IPCC.

If anybody was bothered about the facts of this case then they would have been at the meeting rather than posting their suspicions on the forum. Not that a they would now know all the facts, but they would know more.

Perhaps I have 'nothing better to do and fancy hearing some corrupt liars talking rubbish', but at least I'll judge for myself if the people I heard were corrupt liars or not.

The bloke had a knife? they could have tazered him but they chose to unload, again.

They could have, and they did, prior to shooting him. But as the officer explained in general terms, without specific reference to the incident, sometimes tazers don't work, for example 'through thick layers of clothing'. If I remember correctly, last Sunday morning it was very cold. Draw your own conclusions or maybe wait for the IPCC report in a year's time.

Meanwhile, any news on the murder of Daniel Morgan in 1987? That is a local case where the truth really needs to be brought to light.

[CaptainCarCrash]

At last, coherency.

No reason as to why they didn't use a dog team then?

[CaptainCarCrash]

Quote:
My other half is a liberal pacifist who hates violence, loves books and does the times crossword on the way into work. He hates wearing a uniform and is motivated by the intellectual challenge of solving crime, a heartfelt hatred of bullies and unfairness as well as a genuine desire to provide a public service. And I know many of his colleagues feel the same way. Un-Quote.

And yet I've also known officers to bully street drinkers for sport.

The motivations are indeed broad and varied and every case must be independently scrutinised.

The reason as to why they are under so much pressure in part is because when they have indeed been left unfettered we get miscarriages of justice and other such unsavoury manifestations of what it is to be human.

Let's just hope that this can see closure without serious reprisals.

[Annie]

[quote="michael"]What a lot of discussion on the subject in the last couple of hours. All from people who were not at the meeting that was occurring at the same time for the community to hear a bit more information from the Police and the IPCC.

If anybody was bothered about the facts of this case then they would have been at the meeting rather than posting their suspicions on the forum. Not that a they would now know all the facts, but they would know more.


How do you know I wasn't there?

[michael]

How do you know I wasn't there?

Because the posts were during the meeting. Would you like to correct me and say you were posting from the back of the meeting, or was my assumption both reasonable and correct?

No reason as to why they didn't use a dog team then?

I'm not sure how the police use dogs. I wonder if dogs are available for rapid deployment at 6am on a Sunday and if they would be used to bring down a man possibly armed with knives. It sounds like what you are suggesting is allowing a pack of dogs to tear a man apart to avoid shooting him. I think I feel safer with selected police officers trained to 'shoot to stop' rather than packs of dogs trained to bring down a man who has been surrounded.

I hope that once the IPCC report is produced it becomes clear why the officers needed to shoot the suspect rather than use any other methods, but I don't think it is helpful to second guess all the decisions they made at the time without greater knowledge of the situation.

[CaptainCarCrash]

I'm not sure how the police use dogs. I wonder if dogs are available for rapid deployment at 6am on a Sunday and if they would be used to bring down a man possibly armed with knives. It sounds like what you are suggesting is allowing a pack of dogs to tear a man apart to avoid shooting him. I think I feel safer with selected police officers trained to 'shoot to stop' rather than packs of dogs trained to bring down a man who has been surrounded.

No it doesn't sound like I'm suggesting a pack of dogs rip the man limb from limb, that's an obserred deduction. It may be an alien concept to you but I just happen to feel opposed to leaving the police to their own devices and making idiotic statements about the o'clockedness of dog teams is ridiculous.

You're entitled to your opinion so fair enough.

I just think that the recent case of Ian Tomlinson's unlawful murder and the case of Ali Dizaei attempted fitting up of an innocent man over a £600 bill or the Killing of Mark Duggan hasn't helped the perception of the police for people like Lisa. I could ream off a load more examples but there would be absolutely no point. My opinion of when it really mattered they were nowhere to be found still stands mind.

But I suppose in the modern age where coin is king life is cheap.

[perryman]

If anybody was bothered about the facts of this case....

I'm very concerned about this, but was not at the meeting.
Can you michael (or anyone else) tell us what was revealed to reassure the community?

There is much to explain in my opinion.

[michael]

Mike,
Sorry if I went over the top, but I honestly can't imagine a way that dogs would have made the situation safer for anybody present.

Assuming police followed approved procedure, which I'm sure they do wherever possible (de Menezes, Duggan, and others are still the exception rather than standard procedure), then your conclusion that 'life is cheap' is not reasonable. The police are only authorised to shoot when life is in danger. It will be up to the IPCC to say whether the officers acted appropriately once they have the full facts, and I'm not sure how we can leap to conclusions until then.

Perryman,
I'm not sure I can do justice to a two hour meeting and I'm not sure that all of the audience were fully reassured by the very limited facts that were made available. But here are some of the notes I made during the meeting:

I have already referred to how tazers might not always be effective.
Time between the arrive of local police and the arrival of armed response team appears to have been 13 minutes.
Police will be arresting the man who was shot, once he is well enough. IPCC will interview him after that.
Officers who discharged their weapons have provided written statements for the IPCC and are not on active duty (standard procedure after weapons discharge). They can be interviewed further by the IPCC later, possibly under caution if necessary.
Police were pleased with the public response and the 'wealth of evidence' in this case.
There has been an increased police presence in the area since the incident to reassure the public and to ensure witnesses came forward.
The man who was shot lives very locally to the incident.
No police officers or other members of the public were wounded.

The police did not detail anything about what happened but there were two neighbours who witnessed part of the scene. Some of this evidence was possibly contradictory (did he have more than one knife), but the scene was described as 'chaotic' immediately after shots were fired, with 'no one in control'.

Edit: Removed link to article that was about a previous meeting held on Monday, not today.

[Annie]

How do you know I wasn't there?

Because the posts were during the meeting. Would you like to correct me and say you were posting from the back of the meeting, or was my assumption both reasonable and correct?

Yes your assumption was correct,but one should never assume a!

[Great Bustard]

Why does a police officer volunteer for the armed section, if they dont want to fire their weapons ?

Whats the point ?

Surely thats the idea, at some time to be able to fire the gun !

[LisaCummins]

Blimey Lisa! Police have made mistakes, but they are NOT allowed to murder people. This general sweeping statement is akin to racist comments.

Infact I find your comment rather abusive and offensive Lisa.

Whatever you think of the police, in totality they do a good job, this isn't like Brazil or Guatemala where they really do have problems with their police. Good grief.

Are you actually offended or are you just using a small window of opportunity to pretend to be offended?
Abusive? tell me where?
Akin to racism? ....Well I'm not the one to mention Brazil or Guatemala.
As for sweeping statements, Do you mean all the people of Brazil or Guatemala have problems with all the police in their countries?

No, the only sweeping will be done by the Metropolitan Police, when they sweep evidence against themselves under the carpet.

[LisaCummins]

Lisa, I'm afraid that that is a load of offensive, abusive codsawllop.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

No need to be afraid Voyageur.
The only people who should be offended are corrupt police officers. If you are not one of them, then you shouldn't find it offensive.
Abusive, I don't think so...but if I'm wrong, please tell me where.
Codswallop, take your head out of the sand!

[LisaCummins]

Oh dear I have seen some ridiculous statements before on this forum, but the above really do go beyond the norm. If this is the sort of thing you really think, then good luck to you. This forum used to be really interesting and informative and an asset to the community; its just not worth it anymore.

Sorry if you feel that way. I hope next time I speak my mind of truth it is something more interesting or informative.
I'm sure you don't mean what you say about it not being worth it anymore. I regard this forum and the majority of its members to be admirable.

[LisaCummins]

Sweeping statements made on the back of isolated incidents are never a good thing.

All of the police that I know are wonderful. And all that I have come across in a general sense have been exremely respectful and polite. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but this has been my personal experience.

....Yet, they are supposed to be super-human in the face of extremely stressful situations. They are sent out on the beat on their own, they are continuablly abused and ridiculed and all they are trying to do is their job.

I am not talking about this specific incident, which clearly needs to be properly investigated.
We do not have the full details yet.

I am grateful that if I, or one of my family members or friends (heaven forbid) are in accident, or a victim of crime, that I have a regulated police force to go to, whether or not they are able to deal with my query promptly.

Want to see a difference in policing - make the football stadiums pay for their own policing, sort out the outragous drunken louts on our high streets (one time I'm thankful to live in London when I look at the behaviour in some other UK cities and charge individuals who waste resources). Allow the police more leeway in dealing with the oiks....in a general sense (Im not saying shooting someone is ok, but personally I would rather that the police were more heavy handed with real offenders than we continue to see the increase in violent crime on innocent victims that we continue to see).

Discharging a fire arm is not done lightly, the training is rigorous but at the end of the day it remains a split-second decision that the officer has to live with. I am sure that the officer involved here will regret his actions, whether or not he was technically in the right or in the wrong. It's an awful, awful thing.

The level of anxiety for public disorder remains high and whilst it does you can expect a proportionate response from what are, after all, other human beings.
Let us not forget that a police officer on patrol was fired at indiscriminately the other day.

We need to diffuse the tension not by whipping up frenzied accusations of blame, but by understanding what went wrong and why it went so very wrong.

I feel terribly sorry for the families involved.

Do you mean all the police in real life or actors on TV?

I wouldn't expect the police to be super-human, nor would I think anyone else. The fact is, most of them are rude, lazy bullies, who cower behind their corrupt badges. I'm sure if any police officer felt abused or ridiculed, he/she would simply resign...but no, they 'enjoy' it too much.

Yes, this incident does indeed need to be properly investigated. But it won't. The IPCC smokescreen will make its findings public, saying the police acted properly - you'll see!

You get the odd police officer out on the beat, strutting around, thumbs in bottom of his sleevless vest. They seldom stop to help people. They don't seem interested to interact. I'm sure they are aware the majority of people distrust them, but they don't care. They are in constant radio communication with their collegues. Any sign of trouble, they will have assistance within minutes. Now if you phone them and need them in a hurry, you get 20 questions asking your name, address, etc, etc, then you wait, wait and wait some more. I've never seen a police officer out on beat on his own at night in Sydenham because they are cowards. You only need to view youtube videos of the student's protests or the later riots to see out numbered police doing nothing to stop people smashing windows and wrecking the place. Once the police get assistance, it's funny how they suddenly become 'brave' enough to kettle, to assault members of public, to drag a man from his wheelchair....the list is endless!

Hopefully nobody you know, whether it be friends or family will ever be involved in an incident where you need assistance of police. However, if you do, I wonder would the police pass on your personal details to an insurance company so they can text you or sell your phone number and sim details to the newspapers. (oops, going slightly off topic) Let's see just how many police officers are found guilty for supplying phone details to the newspapers - I bet nil!

Firearms officers volunteer for this position. Many are trigger-happy no questions asked types, they know the Metropolitan Police will allow them to get away with it. (eg. the Stockwell murder)
The only way we can change things for the better is if we can all trust the police. When we get an IPCC who are truly independent. When corrupt police are named and shamed, and sacked just like any other member of public would.
Many people refer to 'just a few bad apples'.....I suggest we need to fell a few trees in the police orchard. Until we do things will only get worse.

[bensonby]

I was going to write a full and detailed rebuttal. I might yet, but to be frank I can't be bothered. I doubt you'd listen to any reason and are set in your bitter and twisted ways.


All I can say is that I pity you Lisa. You seem to live in a very bitter, warped and ignorant little world.

[LisaCummins]

I was going to write a full and detailed rebuttal. I might yet, but to be frank I can't be bothered. I doubt you'd listen to any reason and are set in your bitter and twisted ways.


All I can say is that I pity you Lisa. You seem to live in a very bitter, warped and ignorant little world.

Bitter & twisted!!! Doubt you know the meaning...you fool!!

My husband said he'd like to meet you alone in person, However, I suspect you are one of these coward coppers who will hide behind his dirty corrupt badge. And if you are a copper, I'd doubt you'd have the courage to come alone.

Take your head out of the sand or out of wherever else you have it in.

[leenewham]

Blimey Lisa! Police have made mistakes, but they are NOT allowed to murder people. This general sweeping statement is akin to racist comments.

Infact I find your comment rather abusive and offensive Lisa.

Whatever you think of the police, in totality they do a good job, this isn't like Brazil or Guatemala where they really do have problems with their police. Good grief.

Are you actually offended or are you just using a small window of opportunity to pretend to be offended?
Abusive? tell me where?
Akin to racism? ....Well I'm not the one to mention Brazil or Guatemala.
As for sweeping statements, Do you mean all the people of Brazil or Guatemala have problems with all the police in their countries?

No, the only sweeping will be done by the Metropolitan Police, when they sweep evidence against themselves under the carpet.

I'm not sure what racism has to do with saying that there have been major problems in Brazil and Guatemala with the police, these are well documented Lisa. They kill 3 people a day in Rio alone, look up both regions on human rights websites. We have links with some charities in the region as well as friends and having travelled there.

I think admin should lock this thread, I dont see it being of any use to anyone.

[bensonby]

I was going to write a full and detailed rebuttal. I might yet, but to be frank I can't be bothered. I doubt you'd listen to any reason and are set in your bitter and twisted ways.


All I can say is that I pity you Lisa. You seem to live in a very bitter, warped and ignorant little world.

Bitter & twisted!!! Doubt you know the meaning...you fool!!

My husband said he'd like to meet you alone in person, However, I suspect you are one of these coward coppers who will hide behind his dirty corrupt badge. And if you are a copper, I'd doubt you'd have the courage to come alone.

Take your head out of the sand or out of wherever else you have it in.

I don't hide behind anything. I'm more than happy to meet people and divulge precisely who I am and have met many people who post on this forum.

Implicit threats aren't the way to go though...

[GemStone]

I was going to write a full and detailed rebuttal. I might yet, but to be frank I can't be bothered. I doubt you'd listen to any reason and are set in your bitter and twisted ways.


All I can say is that I pity you Lisa. You seem to live in a very bitter, warped and ignorant little world.

I suspect you are one of these coward coppers who will hide behind his dirty corrupt badge. And if you are a copper, I'd doubt you'd have the courage to come alone.

I see a street brawl happening - Quick call the police