They do!
Why didnt kiwi listen?
A huge site[the old gym] and lots of potential custom,right next to the station-ideal surely?
Instead a tiny shop that has already failed as a coffee shop??
I dont get it?
Your opinion on a new healthy Juice/Coffee Bar in Forest Hil
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
What I miss from NW London is good cafes in the parks. I'd love to see the house in Mayow Park turned into one. Roundwood Park in Willesden was in quite a rundown area, but it had a proper cafe with healthy meals, with a huge sandpit with slides and tonka toys for toddlers on one side and tables carved out of tree trunks on the other for non-breeders.
raymondus - are you thinking of opening something? 
I'm not sure which place you mean, but a small shop catering mostly for the takeaway commuter market, but with a few tables and chairs for sitting in would probably work out well.
It's probably better to start small and work up.
If you had good cakes and pastries and preferably some good quality takeaway bread, I'm totally in there!
I know I keep talking about it but I really think bread would be a seller - I'm sick of having to buy nasty and expensive sliced loaves from the corner shop when I run out - I would definitely by decent fresh bread from a deli style coffee shop.
I'm not sure which place you mean, but a small shop catering mostly for the takeaway commuter market, but with a few tables and chairs for sitting in would probably work out well.
It's probably better to start small and work up.
If you had good cakes and pastries and preferably some good quality takeaway bread, I'm totally in there!
I know I keep talking about it but I really think bread would be a seller - I'm sick of having to buy nasty and expensive sliced loaves from the corner shop when I run out - I would definitely by decent fresh bread from a deli style coffee shop.
I think a coffee shop in the gym would be good as you'd get people on saturdays and sundays chilling out and losing a few hours there. If it's small I don't think you would get that so much (as it would be more like Zuckers)- plus if it looks busy I think more people would pop in (I know I certainly would!).
I also think it would need to be totally different to Sema's Cafe and the other cafe near the station and would need to offer something more than takeaways.. Jucies, smoothies, lattes etc would be great in the mornings on the way to work!
The hairdressers rent from the landlord as they own the whole building. If you want to get a gage of prices perhaps ask the outback salon as they would probably be very keen to have a coffee shop next door as it would help custom! They are very friendly and I know they thought it was a shame when the florists left..
I also think it would need to be totally different to Sema's Cafe and the other cafe near the station and would need to offer something more than takeaways.. Jucies, smoothies, lattes etc would be great in the mornings on the way to work!
The hairdressers rent from the landlord as they own the whole building. If you want to get a gage of prices perhaps ask the outback salon as they would probably be very keen to have a coffee shop next door as it would help custom! They are very friendly and I know they thought it was a shame when the florists left..
Thanks for all your help. Yes - it is the old cab office I am thinking about. I had hoped that one of my mates (who is a chef) could have provided some quality cakes and breads but that does not seem to be working out. I am looking at fresh juices and good coffee - the question is whether the area can support both Zuckers and a new venture and the jury is still out on that one as regards my wife and me.
Thanks for the tip about the hairdressers and I will speak to them - it might be a better shot than going through the agents
Thanks for the tip about the hairdressers and I will speak to them - it might be a better shot than going through the agents
You might also want to talk to Geraldine at the Kirkdale Bookshop. She is chair of Sydenham Traders so maybe a font of knowledge. You could treat her to a coffee at Zuckers to check out the competition at the same time 
She can also put you in touch with Julie Sutch - the Town Centre Manager. Julie is key to any grants & support available from the council. It is in her remit to maximise occupancy of Sydenham's retail premises.
HTH
Stuart
She can also put you in touch with Julie Sutch - the Town Centre Manager. Julie is key to any grants & support available from the council. It is in her remit to maximise occupancy of Sydenham's retail premises.
HTH
Stuart
I am afraid I might have missed the boat. I spoke to the agents - here is the rundown on likely occupancy of the three currently vacant units:
Gym will be a gym
Minicab office likely to be a minicab office
Florists will be another hairdressers.
Sadly, the minicab firm has already made an offer and will probably have the lease before I can get all the quotes for shopfitting done.
It was a nice idea, and I did have great fun peering through the windows fantasizing over what could be.
I am not sure if the old HSBC premises would make a viable coffee shop - perhaps a restaurant but that will depend upon the planning consent.
Gym will be a gym
Minicab office likely to be a minicab office
Florists will be another hairdressers.
Sadly, the minicab firm has already made an offer and will probably have the lease before I can get all the quotes for shopfitting done.
It was a nice idea, and I did have great fun peering through the windows fantasizing over what could be.
I am not sure if the old HSBC premises would make a viable coffee shop - perhaps a restaurant but that will depend upon the planning consent.
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
Well, that's a shame. I don't mind the cab office and hair salon, as those premises are rather small for a cafe, but who wants a gym with great big windows like that? There can't be that many Muscle Beach wannnabes in Sydenham or it would have stayed open last time. Has the landlord got a Rocky fixation?
Time and again it seems landlords with commercial property round here don't give a toss about the community and are happy to leave great shops empty, or fill them with pound shops because they can't be arsed to invest anything in doing them up. Surely the council should intervene and get these places rented?
Time and again it seems landlords with commercial property round here don't give a toss about the community and are happy to leave great shops empty, or fill them with pound shops because they can't be arsed to invest anything in doing them up. Surely the council should intervene and get these places rented?
Raymondus - great that you have discovered all this. But what a lost opportunity for Sydenham - and how crazy that the three prospective businesses duplicate what we already have! If I understand you correctly, there will be a new hairdressers immediately next door to Outback and a new gym which will struggle to compete with LA Fitness. As for a minicab office, why have a second when there is one directly opposite? (Apart from anything else, it will only add to the chaos of cars clogging up Station Approach and making dangerous turns in and out of Sydenham Rd.) It's good to hear that businesses want to start up in Sydenham, but when it's a case of more of the 'same old, same old' it then becomes very depressing!
Castiron and Big Ben have hit the nail on the head. There is simply no overall planning by the local authority for Sydenham Road. This results in:
1. "More of the same" . Instead of widening the appeal of the high street by introducing new and different businesses, LBL does nothing to encourage diversity. In the past the excuse was "well, this was the only client who wanted to lease the premises". This is no longer the case - when Dowlings Travel agent (now the cartridge shop) came up last year there were over 30 applicants. Michael at The Dolphin said to me the other day: "There is a huge-pent up demand for quality businesses in this area". Of course there is - and his business is a prime example.
2. One arm of the council doesn't know what the other is up to. I could give you piles of examples but here is just one. Last year the LBL planning dept received an application to develop the Greyhound car park for housing, and were discussing the final terms of the application with the developer. At the same time, local councillors were discussing with another part of the council the use of part of the car park to gain access to the station. Neither side knew of the other's activities! You can almost guarantee that the current £2m being spent by TFL on improving Sydenham Road will fall foul of the same cock-ups.
What we need is a clear zoned plan with a senior official and cabinet member from LBL in charge. Its aim should be to coordinate planning in and around Sydenham Road and a central plank of its strategy should be to encourage diversity in retailing.
1. "More of the same" . Instead of widening the appeal of the high street by introducing new and different businesses, LBL does nothing to encourage diversity. In the past the excuse was "well, this was the only client who wanted to lease the premises". This is no longer the case - when Dowlings Travel agent (now the cartridge shop) came up last year there were over 30 applicants. Michael at The Dolphin said to me the other day: "There is a huge-pent up demand for quality businesses in this area". Of course there is - and his business is a prime example.
2. One arm of the council doesn't know what the other is up to. I could give you piles of examples but here is just one. Last year the LBL planning dept received an application to develop the Greyhound car park for housing, and were discussing the final terms of the application with the developer. At the same time, local councillors were discussing with another part of the council the use of part of the car park to gain access to the station. Neither side knew of the other's activities! You can almost guarantee that the current £2m being spent by TFL on improving Sydenham Road will fall foul of the same cock-ups.
What we need is a clear zoned plan with a senior official and cabinet member from LBL in charge. Its aim should be to coordinate planning in and around Sydenham Road and a central plank of its strategy should be to encourage diversity in retailing.
Nasaroc - I pretty much agree with your analysis but I worry about your solution. We both agree tha LBL's record in sensitive strategic planning is suspect. To put control of who moves into Syd Road and who doesn't makes into the hands of LBL (the planners, TCM ...?) would make me feel very uneasy.
Here the free market should, in the end, rule. It just needs to be given a better opportunity to experiment. Then if we want diversity - we might get it. For a start I wouldn't start a retail business in Syd Road. The risks are too high. Even the best planned business may fail and with all the start-up costs, rates, rent, more roadworks etc - a failure is potentially bankrupting. A lot safer to take the train to London to work for someone else!
Here's one idea to address the problem. LBL could give a grant/year rates holiday to *any* new business that wanted to start up. With one condition - the grant would be subject to a vote by the other traders. Hence anybody competing directly will be voted down, anybody offering something different that might make the Road better for all is going to get the prize. Doesn't stop anybody setting up a competing business, they just have to compete on a level playing field without grants which is right. New novel businesses would have the opportunity to flourish for at least for a year. They would be then be an ongoing success or otherwise would then make way for a better idea.
I'm sure there are many other ways we encourage new business. I just don't see them being applied to lower the threshold for innovation in the High Street - here or anywhere.
Cue comment from our MP whose parliamentary committee has gone into this in rather more detail?
Stuart
Here the free market should, in the end, rule. It just needs to be given a better opportunity to experiment. Then if we want diversity - we might get it. For a start I wouldn't start a retail business in Syd Road. The risks are too high. Even the best planned business may fail and with all the start-up costs, rates, rent, more roadworks etc - a failure is potentially bankrupting. A lot safer to take the train to London to work for someone else!
Here's one idea to address the problem. LBL could give a grant/year rates holiday to *any* new business that wanted to start up. With one condition - the grant would be subject to a vote by the other traders. Hence anybody competing directly will be voted down, anybody offering something different that might make the Road better for all is going to get the prize. Doesn't stop anybody setting up a competing business, they just have to compete on a level playing field without grants which is right. New novel businesses would have the opportunity to flourish for at least for a year. They would be then be an ongoing success or otherwise would then make way for a better idea.
I'm sure there are many other ways we encourage new business. I just don't see them being applied to lower the threshold for innovation in the High Street - here or anywhere.
Cue comment from our MP whose parliamentary committee has gone into this in rather more detail?
Stuart
Stuart - Overall planning would not replace the market with an LBL committee - that would be horrific! But at the moment a leaseholder is faced with a number of different applicants when a premises becomes vacant - all of them willing to pay a commercial rent. Many of them will be "me too" businesses - pound shops, ethnic foodstores, take-aways etc. Others will be businesses different to those we have in Sydenham already and which overall planning would encourage.
Letting traders decide which new businesses come into the High Street on year-long rate holidays as you suggest would be a nightmare. Most local shopkeepers want to restrict almost any new business that may compete with them and they'd only vote on the occasions when such businesses presented themselves. Imagine trying to open a decent coffee shop - every take-away, cafe, foodstore in the High St would be opposed and they'd get it stopped. On this basis The Dolphin (if it wanted a rates holiday) would never have opened. Also - surely the local council have more pressing matters to deal with than organising votes amongst shopkeepers, most of whom are only interested in the number of people waving twenty pound notes who come through their front door. The local Traders Group is only kept going by a few stalwarts - the rest don't appear to give a damn. Why let a group like this decide matters which should be dealt with by the wider community.
At the moment "the market" alone isn't giving many Sydenham residents what they want - good quality and diverse businesses. We need planning to get to that end.
Letting traders decide which new businesses come into the High Street on year-long rate holidays as you suggest would be a nightmare. Most local shopkeepers want to restrict almost any new business that may compete with them and they'd only vote on the occasions when such businesses presented themselves. Imagine trying to open a decent coffee shop - every take-away, cafe, foodstore in the High St would be opposed and they'd get it stopped. On this basis The Dolphin (if it wanted a rates holiday) would never have opened. Also - surely the local council have more pressing matters to deal with than organising votes amongst shopkeepers, most of whom are only interested in the number of people waving twenty pound notes who come through their front door. The local Traders Group is only kept going by a few stalwarts - the rest don't appear to give a damn. Why let a group like this decide matters which should be dealt with by the wider community.
At the moment "the market" alone isn't giving many Sydenham residents what they want - good quality and diverse businesses. We need planning to get to that end.
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Muddy Waters
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 17:05
Most shop freeholders are happy to jump at the chance to have a betting shop or estate agent come knocking at the door of an empty retail unit. This equals long term business and therefore less problem with long term leases. Pound shops, nail bars, hairdressers come and go - easy to fit minimal shop fittings and fill shelves with removable stocks if the business fails.
Sydenham's problem lies with owners of retail units taking the easy option and ensuring rents in the short term.
That said there are some retail unit owners who do exercise a local sense of responsibility, but these are generally those who have owned businesses themselves locally and have a sense of place. Newcomers into retail trade investment are looking for a quick turn around for their capital investmnt and a fast buck.
Sydenham's problem lies with owners of retail units taking the easy option and ensuring rents in the short term.
That said there are some retail unit owners who do exercise a local sense of responsibility, but these are generally those who have owned businesses themselves locally and have a sense of place. Newcomers into retail trade investment are looking for a quick turn around for their capital investmnt and a fast buck.
Perhaps Nasaroc I have more faith in our traders than you.
Would the Dolphin qualify? the other pubs would indeed probably vote against. But who else? I think they would get a very hefty vote. Who else has an interest in the Dolphin becoming another Skydive?
And another pound shop? No chance of a vote from anybody surely?
Or perhaps you are indeed right and the traders would be negative too, not interested in acting in their own self interest. That's the point really - how do you prime the local economy to act in a mutually beneficial way?
Come on Nasaroc - I can find even more holes in my idea than you. Just as I can think of a thousand ways to improve it. On the other hand I can kill dead any idea you can come up with. This negativity is very English. Its given us arguably the most boring high streets in europe. Other nations don't seem to have this problem. A 'can do' attitude can indeed make even crazy ideas work. It just takes imagination.
So let's have some better ideas I can cheer...
Would the Dolphin qualify? the other pubs would indeed probably vote against. But who else? I think they would get a very hefty vote. Who else has an interest in the Dolphin becoming another Skydive?
And another pound shop? No chance of a vote from anybody surely?
Or perhaps you are indeed right and the traders would be negative too, not interested in acting in their own self interest. That's the point really - how do you prime the local economy to act in a mutually beneficial way?
Come on Nasaroc - I can find even more holes in my idea than you. Just as I can think of a thousand ways to improve it. On the other hand I can kill dead any idea you can come up with. This negativity is very English. Its given us arguably the most boring high streets in europe. Other nations don't seem to have this problem. A 'can do' attitude can indeed make even crazy ideas work. It just takes imagination.
So let's have some better ideas I can cheer...
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
Getting information seems to be a problem for potential retailers. Could this website diversify and provide commercial property listings, for a fee?
Interested parties would have access to lots of locals who are very keen to get involved in market research and feedback. This could be the first port of call for anybody looking to start up in Sydenham.
I know some people would be anxious to keep their ideas secret but perhaps with anonymity and a bit of planning it would work.
Interested parties would have access to lots of locals who are very keen to get involved in market research and feedback. This could be the first port of call for anybody looking to start up in Sydenham.
I know some people would be anxious to keep their ideas secret but perhaps with anonymity and a bit of planning it would work.
I could do a photoshoot of empty premises to create a display and open it up so people could post their comments or suggestions underneath. It could also act as a aide memoire to our TCM, SydSoc and others seeking to attract new businesses.castiron73 wrote:Could this website diversify and provide commercial property listings, for a fee?
Here is an example of real commercial listings we do elsewhere so you get an idea how it might appear: http://hurstwarne.com/retail.html
Watchafink?