Planning Applications for The Kirkdale Institute

[The Sydenham Society]

Kelvin Grove School have lodged three planning applications in the very busy run up to Christmas, for work at the Listed Kirkdale Institute.

Hopefully this link will take you to them ...

http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/lewis-xs ... IPSESSION={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}

The application numbers are:

DC/11/78658/X
DC/11/78659/X
DC/10/76008/FT

[Tim Lund]

Try these:

• DC/11/78658/X
• DC/11/78659/X
• DC/10/76008/FT

[mrchives]

I think this school expansion should be objected due to the amount of litter that the kids are leaving in the street, and dumping them in peoples gardens.

The side road of Kelvin Grove needs to be repaired, and the increased footfall will make it worse.

There should be increased security for this road due to the age of the kids that attend the scool, and the kinder garden at the end of the road.

I urge all residents in and around the area to oppose this expansion, it will bring chaos to the local residents and not improve quality of life.

[Chris Best]

http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... px?ID=7337

Above is the link for the report on "Measures to increase the provision of places in mainstream
primary schools" where the shortage of primary places is covered.

Kelvin Grove will become a three form entry to provide much needed primary school places in Lewisham.

[mrchives]

Increased children do lead to increased rubbish, noise, and in some cases vandalism of property, and vehicles.
Furthermore the increased risk of Pedophilia could well result in this school expansion.

There is already enough pupils going to this school, and it does not need to be expanded.

Sure if you live streets away, you can comment that its a good thing, however
the recent violent assault and mugging which you I am sure you have been made aware of on this street furthermore backs up this argument that safety on this road is not guaranteed.

What are labour doing about protection of this area. Absolutely nothing.

Look after the basics first before wild ideas like this are considered.

[Tim Lund]

Mrchives - do you not like children?

[Annie]

I can sympathise with Mrchives,
The road leading to the School is very small,any increase in foot traffic and subsequent noise will be a nightmare,
Its ok for us who do not live there, but having endured noisey neighbours. I can appreciate the need for peace and quiet.
Having said that I also understand the need for extra places for the increase in Children in this area.

[marymck]

From my point of view I'm very concerned about potential changes to the interior and exterior of the building, which is now English Heritage Listed.

I will study the plans very closely and hope the building's history will be respected.

Personally, I'm also concerned that it remain a centre for life-long learning. So I will be looking to see what provisions will be put in place for the building to be used for the wider community. Not just those with children.

I'm a little nervous that adults will find themselves excluded or looked upon as potential paedophiles if we want to visit this important community asset.

[NatashaM]

I am boggling at some of the responses on this thread, especially those by mrchives.

There are more children of primary school age living in the borough than there were. They need school places.

There is an empty school building next to an existing school.

It's not difficult.

the noise from arrival and depature times of 9.00am and 3.30pm isn't going to keep anyone awake.

I'm not even going to address the bonkers stuff about paedophiles and violent crime. Safety on any road isn't guaranteed.

It might be good to have an actual zebra crossing somewhere on Kirkdale between the mini roundabout and the top of the hill so schoolkids and others can cross more safely.

[Annie]

I am boggling at some of the responses on this thread, especially those by mrchives.

the noise from arrival and depature times of 9.00am and 3.30pm isn't going to keep anyone awake.

I'm not even going to address the bonkers stuff about paedophiles and violent crime. Safety on any road isn't guaranteed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion NatashaM,
not everyone has Children,
not everyone likes the noise they make.(and their parents/minders)
some people who live next to the school might be night workers,or retired and want peace and quiet, you don't know, so you can not assume.

[Rachael]

If you buy a house beside a school, you have to expect a little disruption. But really, it isn't much. And you'll probably find you can knock a bit off the price of the house, too.

I live right opposite Forest Hill Boys school. I mean RIGHT opposite. There are also two primary schools within a few minutes walk in either direction. There is extra traffic for 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon. The boys are also in the playground for about 20 minutes at lunch time. That's it. I work from home. None of this bothers me.

[marymck]

It might be good to have an actual zebra crossing somewhere on Kirkdale between the mini roundabout and the top of the hill so schoolkids and others can cross more safely.

There is a separate thread on this forum about speed cushions and other so called "vertical deflections" that Lewisham are planning for upper Kirkdale. So far, it has proved impossible to find out what they have in mind, though we have been promised a leaflet before work commences.

As far as I understand it, no pedestrian crossings are planned.

I have asked for speed cameras. Rejected by Council as statistics show the road is not dangerous enough. (Apparently upper Kirkdale has not had the numbers killed or seriously injured that Westwood Hill has.)

I have also asked for vehicle activated signs (those flashing numbers that remind you of your speed). I don't think these required the same numbers of killed and/or seriously injured that the Council need before they can install speed cameras.

I have also asked for pedestrian pelican type crossings of Kirkdale near Kelvin Grove and the junction with Thorpewood (to cover the two schools). And for parking restrictions to improve sightlines and stop the dangerous chaos that ensues around the time of the school run.

Zebra crossings won't work, as children don't know how to use them. Even adults seem to sidle up to them (often with mobile phones clutched to ear) and step out without looking. You really have to be a mind-reader to try to drive over the pedestrian crossing near the Woodman, for example.

I'd also like to encourage the schools to educate children (and their parents) on how to cross the road safely and bring back the "wear something white/bright in the night" campaign. Oh yes, and not to play chicken games by roller skating in front of the cars ... as happened when I was driving past Home Park last night.

There is an empty school building next to an existing school.

There is a temporarily unused Listed building next to the school. Until recently this building was - as it had been for its entire life - a centre for adult education, much valued by the community. Children and their parents are part of the community; they are not all of it. If the school can use part of the building (without changing its character or diminishing it) alongside adults, then that's fine and a good use of resources. If by moving children in, adults can no longer use the Kirkdale Institute, then that is not a good use of resources and discriminates against the wider community.

[Annie]

If you buy a house beside a school, you have to expect a little disruption. But really, it isn't much. And you'll probably find you can knock a bit off the price of the house, too.

I live right opposite Forest Hill Boys school. I mean RIGHT opposite. There are also two primary schools within a few minutes walk in either direction. There is extra traffic for 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon. The boys are also in the playground for about 20 minutes at lunch time. That's it. I work from home. None of this bothers me.

Yes,I can understand what you are saying,However,not everyone thinks the same,the residents of that small road may have bought their houses a long time ago,and without the thought of the School being expanded,I have been down there at school leaving time and the disruption/noise is quite a lot, also they have after school clubs and breakfast club, so things start early and finish later than you may think.
I do not live anywhere near the school,but again I can sympathise with those that do.
Also,I know I havent got round to it but I was hoping to join a class or two at the Adult Education
center.

[mrchives]

First of all there has been a violent assault on this road, to an innocent woman who was mugged.
To all of you who think that this type of thing can be accepted should be disgusted with our attitudes.

One too many muggings on this dark road could be the start of more to come, and what to think of the children who could all too easily be swept up by a paedophile, or worse, and then guess what? - Everyone will cry out for better security.

The road is busy from 730am solid til 5pm daily , and at weekends, and because the people hanging around sit on peoples walls throw rubbish in their front gardens it adds to misery living in this road.
The vast majority of you reading this do not know what you are talking about.
Until you do, go post elsewhere.

Expanding this school will make this worse, and the knock on effects will continue to rise.
What used to be a peaceful road, will become more of a hazard and complete nightmare for the residents of this road.

Why should the residents of this road suffer whilst everyone else would "seemingly benefit?"
This will be fought tooth and nail.

[leenewham]

First of all there has been a violent assault on this road, to an innocent woman who was mugged.
To all of you who think that this type of thing can be accepted should be disgusted with our attitudes.

Who said that, or who thinks that?

[mrchives]

If you this school's size, the problems will grow.
Peace and quiet - a right afforded to us all will now be surrendered if this expansion is approved.

I know the residents down this road personally, and they do not want this expansion.

The people that should be consulted and who's opinions would matter most are the local residents. Think of their lives that will be affected for many years to come.

[Annie]

Why don't you get a petition up? maybe it would help if people showed their opposition.

[Manwithaview1]

http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... px?ID=7337

Above is the link for the report on "Measures to increase the provision of places in mainstream
primary schools" where the shortage of primary places is covered.

Kelvin Grove will become a three form entry to provide much needed primary school places in Lewisham.

Plus it will have more space for ASD/SEN children with a new playground.

[caseyref]

I live next to the school on Kirkdale and must say that I am not a great fan of the expansion plan.

I would like to add my 2 cents on this one..

1. The traffic on Kirkdale is a major issue as the council are completely unable to think of a suitable way of sorting the road.

I think that additional parking installed into the pavement next to Costcutter down to the Kirkdale institute embedded into the already wide pavement would assist the increase in traffic.

At the moment the area is hectic in the morning and afternoon thanks to the council introducing a useless 2nd island next to the roundabout which is doing nothing but push people parking outside the school, in & blocking all of Brickwood Close and up the Hill on both sides creating an accident waiting to happen as the road size reduces with cars still flying up and down.

Also a Lewisham Council parking attendant is now seen around 3pm - 3:45 handing out tickets to all outside the Kirkdale institute down to Costcutter meaning parking is reduced.

2. School standard I am a previous pupil of the school and have a brother in the school and I find the school standards to have slipped since I have left (now coming up to 10 years ago). Increased pupil numbers is not what this school needs as they need to raise their standards and care for their pupils they already have.

3. SEN Provisions I think SEN provisions at the Institute would be fantastic as the building was previously used as a SEN school many years ago. I still remember the council transport buses lined up to take pupils to and home at various times of the day to assist with the areas congestion... could this happen again? Also could this happen with adults with learning disabilities creating a council centre for education for those who need it?

4. The Noise.. by saying noise is an issue is far from the issue here. The school is here and is going no where. Anyone that lives local to the school has no issue with the school as it expected living near a primary.

Finally 5. Size.. Kelvin Grove has a sure start centre, nursery, reception (in the portacabin type building), the school building and lots of playgrounds. I don't feel adding another building is appropriate as the school has some classrooms empty where the previous reception classes where due to their new portacabin building until the school sorts out its configuration and use of space better handing them more property and refusing community use is not a good thing.

Personally I mainly feel that the building would serve better as a public resource still but maybe under control of the community a bit like the libraries in Lewisham have.

And well done if you got through reading that haha

[Manwithaview1]

Very balanced and well thought out. There will always be those who move close to something then complain about it, airport, railway line etc.