Intergenerational injustice

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Tim Lund
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Tim Lund »

mosy wrote:In terms of teaching politics in schools, at one time, a GCSE in "British Constitution" was considered a soft option (versus economics, say) and considered relatively useless in pragmatic terms in the same way that "media studies" is today. My instinct tells me that many teens are just not interested in achieving the historical grasp of "how we arrived at this point" when they'd much rather be learning how to animate a computer game.
But I'm sure teenagers still think about why they should do what they're told to do, which I think is amounts to political theory as it applies to them. It was either in my teens or early 20s that it occurred to me that criminal and terrorist organisations behaved like legitimate states in claiming a right to tax and otherwise coerce some more or less defined groups of people. So the Mafia would require businesses to pay them off in their areas, while the PLO would collect contributions from the Palestinian diaspora. At the time, the PLO was trying to be given an established position at the United Nations - which I understood to be to legitimise a developing de facto quasi-state authority. I was also thinking about how the now entirely legitimate Irish state had emerged from a terrorist organisation. Some time later I discovered that this understanding had been expounded rather more authoritatively by the German sociologist, Max Weber.

I've never actually read anything by Weber - I'm told he's the sort of writer who gives German academics a bad reputation - but I've also been thinking about some other ideas he developed, which might relate more to teenagers' actual experience of authority, and how it connects to the formal politics of the British Constitution. I refer to his classification of types of authority into traditional, legal-rational and charismatic. For a teenager, traditional authority will be experienced in the first instance from parents, and teachers, up to a point. They'll also have experience of charismatic authority - doing something because the person suggesting they do - probably one of their peers, but maybe a teacher - it is cool, popular, or, looking to the dark side, the class bully. Legal-rational authority, the stuff of constitutions, is harder, because its value only emerges from seeing the weaknesses of the two other types of authority. It's one of the reasons I so much enjoyed this book I posted about earlier this year.

So that's what I meant by writing that learning about politics and how our systems have developed required some kind of sociological background - as well as some economics. I think it would be great if kids were thinking and talking this sort of stuff - even if not necessarily referring to Weber, Marx, Adam Smith or whoever.
mosy
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by mosy »

Tim Lund: Since the thread heading is Intergenerational injustice, I'll refer to the intergenerational bit :mrgreen: I'm not sure it makes one bit of difference what older people think younger people _should_ be interested in as either they will or they won't be - in other words, you can't make youngsters be interested in things if they're not any more than one can make an adult similarly.

One possibility could be to form a "Young Politicians Group" as an after school activity (do or can these exist now?). Such would attract those interested and not waste curriculum time for those who aren't and whose school hours could better be spent on more "grounded" topics.

A lot of politics is manipulation and horse trading, as history has shown and is still showing, either behind the scenes or by propaganda or "spin". It could be well worth teaching students about ulterior motives though - consider, it's pointless trying to argue a case which has already been pre-decided or where vested interests will inevitably prevail.

The difference intergenerationally to me is that it was, or was thought to be, possible to "go out and change the world" - could anyone honestly say that it is now? I suspect they'd be hard pressed to in the global trade and EU regulation times now, but hey ho - perhaps that's why we need to get youngsters into politics so that new brooms can sweep a path ahead to make a difference even if only one paving slab at a time to make progress.
Robin Orton
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Robin Orton »

No chance of getting young people interested in this discussion anyway, unless we all start writing shorter posts with fewer footnotes ( he knows who I mean). Even I nod off sometimes.
Tim Lund
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Tim Lund »

Do keep up at the back there, Orton. When it comes to discussing injustices, it's advisable to wise up rather than dumb down.
Robin Orton
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Robin Orton »

I respectfully submit that wising up is one thing but that (e.g.) going on and on about this Webber bloke who YOU ADMIT YOU'VE NOT EVEN READ (but wasn't there a Posy Simmonds strip about him in The Guardian?) is quite another.
Tim Lund
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Tim Lund »

And would you equally say no one should refer to ideas from Marx if they've not read the relevant works by him, or classical economics if they've not read Smith's Wealth of Nations? Now that really would be elitism :D
lize1968
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by lize1968 »

Dear Tim

Thank you for initiating the thread about intergenerational justice. As one of the the team working for The Intergenerational Foundation(IF) http://www.if.org.uk, it is heartening to read such lively discussions.

However, rather quickly it moved on to the benefits being 'lost' by older generations - e.g. subsidised coach travel and the idea that younger generations are 'getting it easy' and shouldn't be helped.

Here are some facts: 1m under 25 year olds NEET (not in employment, education or training), the rise in part-time employment, the decrease in average entry level wages, the increase in contract staff (with no rights or pensions), the creation of internships and the introduction of tuition fees.

Loss of Sure Start centres, abolition of Education Maintenance Allowances, Child Benefit and Child Tax Credits. Once in work, little opportunity to progress.

Record rents of £800 approx a month being paid to buy-to-letters, who own, WAIT FOR IT - two thirds of the housing stock! Their ages? Baby Boomers, who say they will pass the money on to younger generations via their housing, but who are in fact, taking that very same money off those younger generations in rents, now!

They then take payment holidays from their mortgages, have the lowest level of savings of any post-war generation and created rather nifty equity release schemes to take the gains made in cash, now. The average age of a first time buyer is now 37 year of age as so little salary can be saved after rent for the deposits needed for the over-inflated property boom. Couples are putting off having children - we are beginning to see the socio-economic effects.

And what have older generations been asked to give up so far? A subsidised coach travel benefit that not many people use but yet complain about? How about not taking winter fuel allowance if you don't need it? Or asking politicians to re-balance universal benefits across all generations to protect younger generations more?

I came across a shocking stat just last week. The National College of Midwives says we are short 4,700 midwives to ensure safe births for both babies and mothers. The number of cases of maternal and infant mortality are increasing. All politicians from all political parties know this stat.

As we speak £50bn of the £100bn NHS annual budget already goes on the over-65s and with a projected 300% increase in the number of over 90s, living longer, but living longer unwell, our national service of health provision will go bankrupt as will our pension pots (in fact most are already empty but the government doesn't want anyone to know!) - sorry to break the badd news. Hey but don't worry you've still got free prescriptions.

I am trying to illustrate the ACCUMULATION of problems facing younger generations - surely we owe them as safe as possible an entry into the world when they are born, the same education we all received without passing the costs of these (via another catchy title or two -PPPs and PFIs) onto their own children?

I find the votes at 16 another interesting argument. We would never dare to suggest that an 85 year old is too old to vote would we? Yet we are happy to be as ageist as we want about the young.

IF has just completed some pan-european research that we can all be very proud of. The data was taken from the 2008 European Social Survey that samples nearly 60,000 people across 29 countries including countries from the former Communist Bloc - so way before the recent riots.

UK young people are the least respected by their own countrymen and came near bottom for being viewed with admiration, competence, friendly or having high moral standards. These are the children of the Boomers, who are being called 'feral' by the very parents who have let them down... and their contemporary baby boomers let it happen.

IF exists to promote the rights of younger and future generations. If they have no say either through ignorance or disenfranchisement then we owe it to them to help - don't we? :mrgreen:
Eagle
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Eagle »

i do take issue with your comment buy to letters own two thirds of the housing stock. I cannot believe that this is remotely correct.
I do agree buy to letters have not been a good thing , but not sure what you can do to stop them.
In my knowledge many buy to letters are in late 20's and early 30's , hardly the baby boomer generation.

Surely youngsters should stay with their parents to mid 20's if possible.

I do very much symphasise with many young people trying to gain employment. The biggest culprit was the Labour Government which encouraged unlimited immigration.
lize1968
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by lize1968 »

Re Eagle

"i do take issue with your comment buy to letters own two thirds of the housing stock. I cannot believe that this is remotely correct"

• Over 55 year olds own nearly 2 thirds of net housing wealth in 2009, Dr Alan Holmans, Cambridge University for Council of Mortgage Lenders

It is a shocking stat that I hope boomers will remember it when going for their next by-to let!
Rachael
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Rachael »

lize1968 wrote:Re Eagle

"i do take issue with your comment buy to letters own two thirds of the housing stock. I cannot believe that this is remotely correct"

• Over 55 year olds own nearly 2 thirds of net housing wealth in 2009, Dr Alan Holmans, Cambridge University for Council of Mortgage Lenders

It is a shocking stat that I hope boomers will remember it when going for their next by-to let!
What is shocking is the way you have manage to mangle the statistics you present. 'Net housing wealth' is about the value of the properties held. 'Stock' is about the number of properties. They are not the same thing.

And because the majority of buy-to-let landlords are apparently over 55 (according to your earlier post), you have decided that any statistic on the over 55s is therefore applicable to buy-to-let landlords? So over 55s own two-thirds of the housing 'wealth'. That just means that the houses the over 55s own are worth more than average. That is all that can be deduced from that statistic, and even that might not be entirely true, as it doesn't reflect other demographics (such as what percentage of the population are over 55).

Can we add to our tale of woes for the younger generation an inability to understand simply statistics?
Eagle
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Eagle »

Lisa
You clearly stated that over buy to letters own two thirds of the housing stock. You seem to be implying that all owners are buy to letters when I would think the percentage is very low.
As I stated , which you did not comment on , I know many BTL flats which are owned by people under 35 , not over 55.

I do agree that many Baby Boomers have had a good deal, especially those on government funded gold plated pensions ( which does not include me ). I trust you are against the industrial action by militant unions as what they are asking is for their gold plated pensions to not be changed and all funded from the younger generation.

As I also stated , again no comment , was the current unemployment is due to Labous disasterous open door to all immigrants. No wonder few jobs for our people
lize1968
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by lize1968 »

You are of course absolutely right about the stock and the wealth. I do apologise for that slip. I am just checking the actual percentage of stock owned by buy-to-letters.

I can say that between 2004-2010 647,000 houses were bought by 'buy-to-let' investors, Howker and Malik, Jilted Generation

By 2008, 58% of these buy-to-let investors were baby boomers aged 45-65 (again Howker and Malik).

In terms of wealth, "over 45s own 83% of housing wealth, the over 65s 40%, the under35s just 5% and its a trend that's likely to continue," Linton Chiswick, Citywire.

Martin Weale, Bank of England MPC member and Professor of NIESR also said "if house prices had grown in line with the stock market over the last two decades (5 per cent a year) then average house prices would be 50% cheaper." I think that's a very interesting stat as it shows that the markets have not driven house price increases but instead scarcity and competition amongst buyers.

There is a very good housing pressure group called pricedout.org.uk if you are interested in researching the data yourselves. I know they have worked with the IPPR and are considered experts in the field.

Whilst we cannot be seen to be supportive of any political party because we are a charity we are not supportive of the strikes.

Immigration is a tricky one isn't it? As a nation we didn't want to do the menial jobs when times were good and welcomed immigration. We have all, I imagine, also profited from the 'polish' phenomenon of reducing building costs. Now times are hard, can we turn round and say we don't like it? Unfortunately the erosion in the average entry wage and the increase in contract staff has little to do with immigration levels don't you think?

When I worked in the civil service I was employed only on contract, no rights to a pension and had to watch my 'permanent' colleagues leaving work at lunchtime on a Wednesday to go and play team sport, paid for by the tax payer. Does that still go on?! A tad unfair to the rest of us methinks

By the way I am not one of the younger generation. I am a mother with teenagers and very concerned about their futures and the future of my grandchildren. So I apologise for my slip but since I am working two jobs and doing the childcare, cleaning and cooking, all unpaid, I hope you will forgive me.

Liz
Eagle
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Eagle »

Thanks for your reply

I regret your housing percentages total to well over 100.

Perhaps if the unemployed on benefit had been made to do the so valled menial jobs then most would ne in work.
Immigration under New Labour not just from Europe. There has been an avalanche from all over the world.
Rachael
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Rachael »

Eagle - now you are misinterpreting the figures. Yes they add up to over 100 per cent, because they are not mutually exclusive percentages. Over 45s own 83 per cent - that includes the over 65s in the next percentage. You can't add them together because they overlap.
stuart
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by stuart »

The figures, as presented, are quite misleading.

The normal way people acquire property is through a mortgage. Hence in their 20/30s they own very little equity. By their 50/60s they have mostly paid off or nearly paid off their mortgages and own 100% (or nearly so) of the equity. Hence in a steady state a larger number of young people may 'own' their homes (have a mortgage) yet if you measure in equity it is the old who have it - and recycle it to their young and the government on death.

Its the % owning (or having a mortgage) that count - not the wealth figures. The only young people who have real wealth in homes are, or will shortly be, even richer than the great mass of 'wealthy' old homeowners.

I'm not denying it is a jolly lot harder to get on the property ladder now and why the old are having to help - but please be careful with these figures.

Stuart

I have to add, as a statistician, that I also detect several instances of the author 'egging' the figures. That is using numbers to fit an agenda and not the other way round. One gets a nose for that - and I need another handkerchief.
Eagle
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Eagle »

Stuart thanks for clarification.

Not sure where the OP is coming from. What do they suggest is done.
sfhyouthforum
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by sfhyouthforum »

I was having this discussion with my boyfriend last night. I feel really frustrated that this will be the tenth anniversary of me paying rent, and the rent for our flat is higher than the mortgages of my friends' properties of equal size and bigger! I have NEVER missed a rental payment or owe any money to utility costs or council tax. In fact the only debt I have is a student loan and even that I saved to afford my £7k fees at LSE to do my master's. The only reason I am renting is because I grew up in a single-parent home with no support from my father, and don't have the wealth of a deposit - 'we got help from mum and dad, gran, my uncle...'. I currently have £6k saved but if you deduct this from my student loan debt, I am actually worth -£9k. Lovely. I'm officially in Club-37! And we haven't even started to talk university fees for any future children!

The worst thing of course is that I studied politics, and policy and happened to read up on mortgages and what the New Economics Foundation had to say on them. Here's David Boyle via The Guardian.

"The word mortgage means 'death grip' or 'death promise' and used to be a last resort method of raising money, using your property as collateral. Even in the early years of widespread home ownership in the 1930s, with affordable semidetached houses widely available, most mortgages were for 15 years and took less than a tenth of your salary. They were also usually paid off early.

These days, mortgage payments can take up well over a third of our income, and we can only afford houses in the first place if two people are earning to pay it off."

Read Michael Rowbotham The Grip of Death: A study of modern money, debt slavery and destructive economics (Jon Carpenter, 1998) ISBN 1897766408 - he gives clear examples of places in Japan where grandparent mortgages exist, taking two generations to pay a house, seeing whole families clubbing together. One way to regain some family ties!!!
hazy
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by hazy »

sfhyouthforum wrote:The only reason I am renting is because I grew up in a single-parent home with no support from my father!!
oh please! i know that single parents are wholly responsible for all antisocial behaviour, crime, riots, looting, insubordination & downright cheekiness, but the current housing situation? - the daily mail would be proud!
Tim Lund
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by Tim Lund »

Melissa - mortgages, and debt in general, are not your problem. What is is an over-priced property market, which is indeed one way things are stacked against the young - but as you correctly observe, the young without well-off property-owning parents in particular. As to why the property is over-priced, you might read this book - I'll lend you my copy, which I've just finished. I'm not saying I agree with everything in it, and it's repetitive in parts, but I still recommend it.
sfhyouthforum
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Re: Intergenerational injustice

Post by sfhyouthforum »

Hazy - I think you read me wrong. I am not blaming single-parents. But it a well known fact that once a family breaks down, it takes on average a decade for the one keeping the children to return to the same levels of affulence pre-split. Couple that with the other parent not paying child support or even seeing their kids...

My comment comes as I ask every home owner under 30 how they managed to save their deposit and the answer is - mum and dad helped us out.

Tim - you are so right about the inflated prices and when people are so rich and the banks' interest doesn't return their savings, a house (many sitting empty) is the best investment. Makes me so angry!
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