Kirkdale Village – Street Beautification Project

[jotbot]

Kirkdale Village – Street Beautification Project

We need some lovely local residents who would be happy to volunteer their time, experience and energy in getting a street beautification project underway.

The aim is to make Kirkdale Village a more pleasant place to shop and live and the group would tackle the following issues and will be supported by the traders

• Flower boxes
• Hanging Baskets
• Fly posting
• Fly tipping
• Street clearing
• Campaigning for Christmas lights

Anyone who maybe interested please send me a personal message.

Thanks

[bigbadwolf]

Forgive me for being sceptical, Jotbot, but from what I've read outside of the local forums on the "Kirkdale Village" idea, a lot of it appears to be promoted by a certain estate agent. The logo was even created by a man working for the same estate agent. You'll have to accomodate further scepticism because according to a residential consultation - which I've never heard of, and of which the results haven't been made public (as far as I'm aware) - the "majority" have suggested that they'd welcome the arrival of a "butcher, closely followed by a café and a delicatessen. Others opted for the introduction of grocers, florists and restaurants, in particular Thai restaurants, but the most creative suggestions included a gallery, cinema, arts centre, ice cream parlor, pie and mash shop and a farmers’ markets". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the residential consensus criteria fits the same, successful model that's seen house prices rise in areas that have been gentrified. Am I seeing a patern here, Jotbot?

I know that these traders you speak of are busy during the day, but why can't they pitch in themselves if they want their smarten-up the stretch of road they do business on? I mean, it'll be their profit margin that'll be affected, not mine. Or are you laying the ground to make Kirkdale seem more attractive to prospective delicatessens, butchers, ice cream parlours and farmers' market, so as to attract more affluent buyers (by making the place more attractive) thus giving local estate agents an excuse to push up market price of the local housing stock? There's nothing wrong with that, but achieving such a goal off of the backs of unpaid volunteers would seem a little dishonest, if that's what the purpose of this Kirkdale Village idea was all along, you know, seeing as local estate agents appear to be pushing the idea.

Here's some evidence of that estate agent involvement I was referring to. You'll notice that a couple of estate agents have been quoted in the source:

http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/blogs/show ... ?post=1398

[Tim Lund]

Hello Wolfie

Your questioning is entirely reasonable. However, I'd invite you to visit Staplehurst Road(just the other side of Hither Green Station), where you'll find an estate agent and other local traders working successfully with a group such as Jotbot is hoping to recruit, and taking their share in looking after the planting.

And here are some more recent photos than on that Google Street view - that I took on Monday







What's your problem with gentrification? How is this different to making an area look better in a way most ordinary people want? Of course an estate agent has an interest in all this - do you have a problem with how a market economy works?

[bigbadwolf]

I have no problem with gentrification, Tim, just as long as it doesn't take advantage of the volunteers' goodwill. True, they'll benefit from any aethetical improvements, but the estate agents will be making more of a profit of off the volunteers' hard, unpaid work. That seems a little unfair, to me. I mean, when I moved I enlisted the help of my brother and a friend. In doing so I saved about £200. I benefitted from their goodwill. I didn't, however, just dispense with them unreawarded and send them on their merry way. No, I rewarded them with a very liberal measure of ale at a local pub. In short, they benefitted from the money I saved, as should the labour force needed to smarten-up an area that, as a result of unpaid labour, will financially benefit those asking for unpaid help.

In the long run this will benefit both the estate agents and local traders who will profit from prospective incomers and their lucre. I just think that those being asked to do all the leg work to lay the ground for those that will earn from an influx of affluent incomers should recieve some, however paltry, reward for their efforts.

[CaptainCarCrash]

I have a problem with Gentrification, I see it is a way of forcing a specific subset of our communities out whilst turning the areas it affects "like a type of cancer" into little middle class enclaves with over inflated prices that only the rich can afford. it's a form of vulgar neo-capitalism dreamt up by yuppie estate agents, which does more actual damage to society than good because it creates an economic and social apartheid.

I think this idea is leaning towards Disco Dave's "Big Society", councils should take some of the responsibility for providing a decent environment for us to live in IMO, they are taking enough of our money through the ridiculous taxes we pay to fight wars in countries where we have no vested interest other than to take control of the oil but it gets dressed up as humanitarian liberalism?

[Tim Lund]

In the long run this will benefit both the estate agents and local traders who will profit from prospective incomers and their lucre. I just think that those being asked to do all the leg work to lay the ground for those that will earn from an influx of affluent incomers should recieve some, however paltry, reward for their efforts.

They will, and I've been on to Jotbot to say that she should make sure they do. Your questioning is not only reasonable, but welcome, because it helps make clear that there is nothing unreasonable going on here. Gardening and being a more or less well-liked civic busy-body may not be your thing, Wolfie, but some of us really do go for it. Witness the group who help these local traders' maintain this planting, witness perhaps myself growing fruit, veg and flowers in my nighbours' garden, and as a result getting to chat to lots of neighbours I would otherwise not have got to know. People like us are not so stupid that we don't understand how the marekt economy works, and if we don't like the fact that a local estate agent will benefit from our free choices, we can simply not get involved, in the same way that if we don't like the fact that Rupert Murdoch will be that much richer if we get a Sky subscription, we can just stick with the BBC.

[stuart]

Mike,

You can't be campaigning for less flowers/more fly tipping. Most, but not all, people want to live in as pleasant environment as possible. Sadly this means taking some active effort to clear up the mess created by the few. Success makes the area nicer which may be reflected in house prices (a benefit to the people here) and to the estate agents as a byproduct.

Yes residents paying rent may be asked for more but is this is an aberration of the capitalists system/anti-social elements of society. Do we really want this to condemn all to living in an ugly slum.

A cheerful place lifts the spirits. I would argue it is those trapped in it (not having a job/country house or holiday to escape to) who would benefit most.

Stuart

[Tim Lund]

I have a problem with Gentrification, I see it is a way of forcing a specific subset of our communities out whilst turning the areas it affects "like a type of cancer" into little middle class enclaves with over inflated prices that only the rich can afford. it's a form of vulgar neo-capitalism dreamt up by yuppie estate agents, which does more actual damage to society than good because it creates an economic and social apartheid.

I think this idea is leaning towards Disco Dave's "Big Society", councils should take some of the responsibility for providing a decent environment for us to live in IMO, they are taking enough of our money through the ridiculous taxes we pay to fight wars in countries where we have no vested interest other than to take control of the oil but it gets dressed up as humanitarian liberalism?

Somehow, Mike, I didn't think you'd be so comfortable with the word gentrification The problems you mention are real, but it's not only via market forces that the vulnerable get exploited. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the people Jotbot finds to help her and her fellow traders come from a good cross section of the community - it's certainly my experience with allotments that gardeners are from all walks of life. On the other hand, it would be a bit of a turn off if someone were to start insisting on the social composition of any group - just give people a chance to be people, wherever they are from.

References to the Big Society are inevitable - you can't stop politicians trying to take credit for positive things people do naturally. As to Councils taking some responsibility - yes - but please not all!

[leenewham]

Totally agree Stuart. This isn't gentrification, it's plating some flowers and clearing away litter. I don't get the whole 'you can't improve it, it may make house prices more expensive' argument. Infact, I think it's daft.

[CaptainCarCrash]

Totally agree Stuart. This isn't gentrification, it's plating some flowers and clearing away litter. I don't get the whole 'you can't improve it, it may make house prices more expensive' argument. Infact, I think it's daft.

Exactly, I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to Tim. Its a good idea if local people can afford to pay for flowers to enhance/improve the environment, fly tippers should be peeled and dipped in salt.

[bigbadwolf]

Totally agree Stuart. This isn't gentrification, it's plating some flowers and clearing away litter.

the group would tackle the following issues and will be supported by the traders

• Flower boxes
• Hanging Baskets
• Fly posting
• Fly tipping
• Street clearing
• Campaigning for Christmas lights

What you claim conflicts with the nature of some of the time consuming tasks jotbot is asking volunteers to do on behalf of Kirkdale's traders, Lee. But tell me, Lee. Are you going to be giving-up some of your free time to help towards the gentrif..., er, sorry, beautification of Kirkdale?

I don't get the whole 'you can't improve it, it may make house prices more expensive' argument. Infact, I think it's daft.

Who, pray tell, is making these assertions?

[leenewham]

Lol, my time is limited Wolfie, so in addition to running a business, doing paid work that pays the bills and the pro bono stuff we do such as What If, looking after the blogs for Home Park, the Library, posters and brochures for the Family Fun Day and the Arts Festival, work for Fairtrade Company, A charity in Central America, Trattoria and some other things in the pipeline which haven't come to light yet, I will have to sit this one out, (although we have been in contact).

[bigbadwolf]

Lol, my time is limited Wolfie

Which is exactly my point, Lee. I can understand that some ventures i.e - charities, local campaigns and not-for-profit community regeneration et al ask the community for an unpaid helping hand. This Kirkdale Village idea, however, is a bit of a grey area, in my opinion. It's being pushed by profit-making groups who will be hoping to attract custom as a result of all this "beautification" done by unpaid labour. Will the unpaid workforce be given a cut of any increased profit that their volunteering will have helped to accomodate? I think not, somehow.


P.s. What you do in your spare time is your business. So, as much as it explains your opting-out of any volunteering on behalf of the Kirkdale Village scheme, your breakdown of the good causes that currently take-up your free time are irrelevant to this discussion.

[Tim Lund]

Wolfie - could we agree on saying it's being led by local traders - with the estate agent playing an unsurprising major role - and accept that we at least hope they and other local traders make profits?

Like you, I am also interested in the wider issues that arise from using unpaid help, and I'd hope that whatever arrangement is reached could also accommodate professional gardeners when they are needed. For me it's also about getting one little bit of the market for labour to work as it should - and for this to happen, the more grey areas are cleared up the better. Sorry to drag in this economic jargon here, but it makes more sense to me than talk of the Big Society. Whatever the language, worrying about it will take us away from the immediate challenge, which it to make the place look nicer. To demand complete clarification before doing anything is a recipe for doing nothing. In the meantime, observe that as of now no one is doing what Jotbot is hoping for, which for me a case of market failure.

[bigbadwolf]

Tim, I think you're labouring under the misconception of 'they're just a group of impoverished shop owners asking for a helping hand'. Yes, individually they've thrown their dice and set-up shop in Kirkdale. But, as a collective entity who are asking for assistance in establishing a nice, tidy new image under the Kirkdale Village banner, they're a commercial group seeking to increase their profit margins by attracting more afffluent clientele. And surprise surprise, there's an estate agent heavily involved, who, perish the thought, may be using this as a way of enticing more affluent buyers into the area. If they all want to smarten-up the stretch of road they do business on so as to attract more custom, then why can't they pay for it? I mean, tesco has a presence on Kirkdale. They'd benefit from attracting more affluent and regular custom, so why can't they help pay towards sprucing-up Kirkdale?

[bigbadwolf]

Angela (STF's latest arrival),

You needn't be so reticent, in that there's no need to send private messages but delete them before I get a chance to read them. I won't divulge the contents, if that's what you worried about.

P.s. I may be wrong, but I posted this notification here as I suspect that your reason for recinding your attempt at contact may stem from reading this thread.

[Tim Lund]

Tim, I think you're labouring under the misconception of 'they're just a group of impoverished shop owners asking for a helping hand'. Yes, individually they've thrown their dice and set-up shop in Kirkdale. But, as a collective entity who are asking for assistance in establishing a nice, tidy new image under the Kirkdale Village banner, they're a commercial group seeking to increase their profit margins by attracting more afffluent clientele. And surprise surprise, there's an estate agent heavily involved, who, perish the thought, may be using this as a way of enticing more affluent buyers into the area. If they all want to smarten-up the stretch of road they do business on so as to attract more custom, then why can't they pay for it? I mean, tesco has a presence on Kirkdale. They'd benefit from attracting more affluent and regular custom, so why can't they help pay towards sprucing-up Kirkdale?

So if I want to get a second glimpse of the Wolf I should hang around the meetings of Lewisham People Before Profit?

[danstevens]

How about the aforementioned estate agent leads by example and takes down this tiny sign that has been hanging off this building for longer than I can remember....

http://www.danstevens.me.uk/sign.jpg

[Juwlz]

Any street beautification project should be applauded. Well done Kirkdale Village people! Keep up the good work, KD village is looking awesome!

[Rachael]

Volunteers do get something out of it - the satisfaction from having volunteered. There is no such thing as true altruism.

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