KICC LEAFLETTING

[panmum]

Hello everyone
There are some worrying developments regarding the Kingsway International Christian Centre (KICC) and the continued battle between them and the community (and indeed council) of Upper Norwood since they bought the former Cinema in Church Road. Some of you may know the story , but for those of you who don't maybe you would be interested to read it. The reason for my post is that the church are planning to hold an event at the top of Crystal Palace Park on Sunday 21st May at 1 p.m. The Cinema for Crystal Palace Campaign have not as yet been made aware of any permission for this being granted by Bromley Council, could anyone that has had a leaflet put through their door please please let the campaign organisers know, you can PM me and I will pass on the info to them, or post here directly, or post over on Virtual Norwood. Thanking you in advance for your help.

Please view this thread. [www.virtualnorwood.com]

Also Facebook page is [www.facebook.com]
/169096823086?ref=ts

[panmum]

Virtual Norwood have started a new thread for this subject to keep the cinema campaign thread a bit more clear, please see here if you would like to inform anyone about the leaflets.http://www.virtualnorwood.com/forum/top ... urch-road/

Thanks very much

[Robin Orton]

Cracking down on unauthorised assemblies by weird religious groups sound a bit ,well, Chinese? Saudi Arabian? Syrian? to me.

[panmum]

Read the thread over on virtual norwood, then come back and comment, no one has a problem with anyone holding events, but in this country most local councils have certain regulations that have to be conformed to before anything like this can be promoted, and if you want to start talking about the rights and freedoms that we should all enjoy, as I presume that is what you are alluding to, maybe you should take a closer look at the KICC and the stance they take on members of our society.

[leenewham]

Agree Panmum, I think you are taking the thread out of context Robin. I'm very interested in how the KICC conduct themselves in this matter.

[Eagle]

Why not use one of the underused C of E Buildings

Maybe if they hold the meeting in the park next to the lake their catering problems could be solved with loaves and fishes.

[Robin Orton]

Í know about the cineme issue in general terms, panmum, because it's been discussed on this forum before. As you asked, I've looked at the recently opened thread on Virtual Norwood, the tone of which struck me as unpleasant - hence my posting here. I haven't got time to read the enormously long cinema thread, if that's what you're suggesting. If you want support from people on this forum, I think the onus is on you to say why we should in your attempts to stop KICC having a meeting which, so far as I can see, has nothing to do with their plans to take over the putative cinema building.

[panmum]

Robin Orton It's unfortunate that you find some posts are unpleasant over on the Virtual Norwood forum, I agree that some may be a little sarcastic, but many of the people posting there have seen at first hand just how dismissive KICC have been of the local community and the local council(s) over many many months,so maybe they are now finding their patience wearing a little thin? And if you had read through the original thread, a tall order I know, it is very long isn't it? then you may see things a little differently, or you may not, in which case then you may have wasted a lot of time.The fact still remains however that if there has been no consultation with the local council with regards to this event, and there seems to be good evidence to suggest that there has not, then this organization will be acting unlawfully. Not really something that shows this church in a good light I would say. If we could all do as we please then I would be driving a van full of pans to the nearest busiest place every Saturday and our musicians would be busking to raise money so we could expand our community project. And the lady down the road who runs a caged bird rescue service could set up a table or boot sale on any high street she liked, or in the park to raise money and get more supporters!! Rules are there for a reason, and they are for EVERYONE to abide by.

[Duke of Clarence]

Thanks for the heads up panmum. It turns out this event has been sanctioned for up to 1,000 attendees by Bromley Council and that when it comes to licensing religious gatherings/events are exempt. KICC fill the ExCel Centre with 25,000 a day during the International Gathering of Champions (IGoC) anual event.

The Prosperity Gospel that KICC adhere to tells followers that the wealthier and healthier they are the closer they are to God. This ethos encourages people to show how much God loves them with ostentacious displays of prosperity, ie big cars, latest gadgets and best outfits.

The congregation behind this event are KICC South West, the same congregation who want to relocate their Wimbledon church to the old Gala Bingo Hall. Problem here is the bulk of the congregation are anywhere between 7 to 25 miles away] from their desired new home.
The KICC congregation is recorded as having a very high car use, submissions to a number of Local Authorities and the Secretary of State himself contain this data.
KICC is a very large organisation with 23,000 followers in the capital. The North London HQ is a similar building to 25 Church Road and KICC have to 6 run back to back services at the weekends to cater for the 12,000 followers. The traffic and parking impact on the area means it is gridlocked at weekends and the shoppers' carpark is used by KICC, who do pay rent to council.

The new proposed programme of events for 25 Church Road does not fall within the permitted use class of the building, which is for public entertainment (D2). KICC bought the building to use as a church bur having been refused change of use they appear determind to use it for religous (D1) purposes regardless.

One of the reasons KICC were refused planning permission was due to the damage the predicted influx of cars from a congregation of 500 would have on the surrounding residential roads and town centre, exacerbated by the fact the venue does not have any on site parking. KICC acknowledged that this would indeed damge the area and be a nusiance to residents so you can imagine how perplexed people are to learn that KICC have more than doubled the size of the proposed audience. In press releases KICC have said they will be catering for 1,150 capcity events. For further details see http://www.campaign.picture-palace.org/

Now that it has been established that the event has been sanctioned I'm sure that any turn out by the local community would be seen as confrontational and shore up KICC's line that they are the victims, stigmatised by the red neck community who are no doubt brainwashed from watching all those demonic movies.

[panmum]

Duke of Clarence, Thank you, That is what I should have written , but just didn't have the time , energy or brain power to. I sincerely hope that you are a part of the campaign, if you are not then you are certainly wasted!:) I am still in shock having found out that this organization can hold this event , with singing and music and still be acting in accordance with council guidelines, because they are a church? What a crazy world.

[panmum]

If anyone would like to see what sort of people the KICC are maybe you will be interested in this article for starters, there's a lot more disturbing information to be found if you have the time or inclination too. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 575660.ece

[Robin Orton]

If anyone would like to see what sort of people the KICC are ...

More accurately, if anyone wants to read an old press report about an investigation by the Charity Commission into irregularities in the church's finances nearly six years ago... (Was anyone prosecuted?)

I don't know where all this 'prosperity Gospel' stuff comes from, apart from Ruth Gledhill's unsourced assertions ('Churches such as Kingsway promote...') in 2005. I can see no sign of it in the church's current vision statement - see http://www.kicc.org.uk/Church/Vision/ta ... fault.aspx

[Voyageur]

If anyone would like to see what sort of people the KICC are ...

More accurately, if anyone wants to read an old press report about an investigation by the Charity Commission into irregularities in the church's finances nearly six years ago... (Was anyone prosecuted?)

I don't know where all this 'prosperity Gospel' stuff comes from, apart from Ruth Gledhill's unsourced assertions ('Churches such as Kingsway promote...') in 2005. I can see no sign of it in the church's current vision statement - see http://www.kicc.org.uk/Church/Vision/ta ... fault.aspx

Robin,

If you are interested in why a large number of (Crystal Palace) locals are anti KICC's actions and intentions have a peruse of the associated threads on Virtual Norwood - far too much to replicate here. This is not a case of being anti religion, more a case of KICC riding roughshod over the local community and refusing to engage with local groups and council representatives.

I don't suppose it affects those in Sydenham, so I wouldn't bother if I were you (unless you are interested in a local independent cinema).

[Robin Orton]

I would indeed like to see an independent cinema in Crystal Palace, Voyageur, and would probably patronize it. What concerned me this week however what seemed to me to be a rather unattractive attempt to use this forum to stir up opposition to a KICC event which, so far as I can make out, is nothing to do with the cinema issue. HRH the Duke seemed to sort of agree with me when she said that

I'm sure that any turn out by the local community would be seen as confrontational and shore up KICC's line that they are the victims

Panmum then added a link to a 2005 newspaper article by a notoriously sensationalist (I believe) religious affairs reporter which purported to show what a generally undeserving gang of scoundrels KICC are. I challenged him/her as to whether the article did in fact show that. I was merely trying to defend the underdog in this controversy against what on the face of it might, it seemed to me, be unfair smears. If you tell me that this is unnecessary because the KICC case had already been fairly set out on the Virtual Norwood site, I will happily shut up.

[Voyageur]

As I said - have a peruse of the posts on this subject on VN if you have an interest in it. KICC are hardly underdogs, they also have no interest in engaging with the local community regarding their plans.

[Duke of Clarence]

Panmum then added a link to a 2005 newspaper article by a notoriously sensationalist (I believe) religious affairs reporter which purported to show what a generally undeserving gang of scoundrels KICC are. I challenged him/her as to whether the article did in fact show that.

Robin is correct to point out that the Charities Commision (CC) investigation happened a few years ago but he is wrong to dismiss it. Maybe I could urge Robin to read the report to find out why there was an investigation in the first place and see for himself the magnitude of corruption at the heart of the organisation. The 2005 tustees still occupy major roles and Matthew Ashimolowo remains leader.

In a nutshell the CC discovered that the trustees were being paid from the charity's funds, which is unlawful so the CC sent officers to investigate. When the CC officers turned up for a surprise visit they caught the trustees loading bags into their cars. The officers asked what was in the bags and were told by the trustees, old files. The officers then asked to see them and when they opened the bags they found them full of cash and current financial records. It is that incident that caused the CC to launch the biggest enquiry they have ever conducted into any organisation.

The leader of KICC was not prosecuted but he was instructed by the CC to repay a six figure sum to the charity after having been found to have benefitted personally from a time share property, expensive cars and parties.

As a result of that investigation the CC issued ammended guide lines that specifically stated church leaders must not use charitable funds to pay for private jets, houses, cars, holidays etc. All of the above is recorded in full in the Charities Commision report and not written by sensationalist religous affairs reporter. You really could not make this up.

[Robin Orton]

Thanks for reminding us about what the Charity Comission report says, Duke. I agree it sounds bad. Let's hope they've learned their lessons and amended their ways.

For the record, my implied criticism of Ruth Gledhill was directed only at what she said about the KICC preaching a 'prosperity Gospel', for which she did not give any evidence.

[Duke of Clarence]

I was merely trying to defend the underdog in this controversy against what on the face of it might, it seemed to me, be unfair smears.

Robin the underdog here is the CP community. A multi million corporate conglomerate breezes into town, snatches the only significant D2 venue from City Screens (CS had tried to but the building the previous year having been engaged with local residents who had brought it to their attention that 25 CR was going to be sold). The conglomerate had no interest in CP until one of the agents they employ to build the real estate part of the business (KICC have most impressive global property portfolio) made a deal with the Gala Bingo agents who supplied a list of bingo halls for sale.

So City Screens were finally ready to sign for the building and KICC arrived. Gala (well they're in the gambling business) insisited on sealed bids. Neither buyer was allowed to send in a surveyor. This bit contavenes CC regulations re spending of charitable funds, the charity was obliged to have survey prior to offer. CS knew they would have to kit anf fit the venue into a 4/5 screen cinema. KICC knew they wanted to leave it to max out the capacity. CS had a tight budget. KICC had no limits. KICC snapped it up, ker ching!

This organisation marches under the following mission statements " Taking Territories" and "Don't take cover take over" Please research Matthew Ashimolowo, check out his sermons there are many on youtube. You will note how they all have one theme. Money. He impresses the crowds with his riches and how he earns more in one day than his father earned in a lifetime. A sign that he truly is in the big G's good books. He offers rank and file members a chance to get closer to God by asking them for "gifts". I was amazed to see one sermon begin with Pastor Ash saying the first 100 people to bring him a donation of £1,000 will be blessed by him and receive back the value of their donations threefold if God sees fit. People in the audience rushed the stage, thrusting their cheques or waving credit cards to Pastor Ash's assistants.

In the Christian chatrooms people have complained about how KICC encourage them to get into debt to make "donations". It is unclear where the money collected ends up. KICC have so many global businesses much of it ends up overseas and impossible to trace. There's KICC TV, KICC music, KICC publishing, KICC events and KICC properties....

The organisation intends to use CP as it's South London HQ but the bulk of the membership are based in Wimbledon and beyond. This means 1,200 people at a time traveling to CP. The venue has never been used to that capacity and when it was a bingo hall the target audience was local and much smaller. The venue has no onsite parking. Every other venue owned by KICC comes with large car park yet the surrounding area still has to absord hundreds of extra vehicles when the carparks are full.

During the planning application to Bromley in 2009 KICC designated every residential road in a 2k radius of 25 Church Road as parking for their members but that was when the proposed congregation was only 500. Now KICC have more than doubled the capacity of the building so I would imagine they will need to increase the parking zone. What they do elsewhere is create park and ride zones as they have a fleet of mini buses, not sure where the P&R zones would be round here, guess we'll find out soon enough, but they cause huge disruption for those living or working in the vicinity.

[Eagle]

Duke thanks for your great explanation. It is strange they cannot find a nearer venue to their flock than CP.

If they come from Wimbledon guess they would catch the tram to Elmers End then walk or get a bus up the Hill.

If people are stupid enough to give donations they cannot afford more fool them.

It is sad it is not going to be returned as a cinema . I think the last film I saw there was Zulu .

[Duke of Clarence]

Why thank you Eagle, am glad it was helpful.

However it is important not to give up on 25CR when there is still hope. It is worth bearing in mind that whilst currently the venue cannot be used as a cinema (D2) it can never be used as a church(D1).

KICC have revealed a new proposed programme of mixed use events that once again do not fall within the permitted use class, most being religious (D1). Bromley have written to the leadership and advised them that they cannot go ahead and open with that programme and must apply for planning permission (again).

Given that traffic and parking was one of the grounds on which the first application was refused, it seems a bit daft to more than double the capacity of the building, as those grounds will still be upheld. I am of the opinion that the leadership believed they could get around the planning regulations by billing services as "gospel concerts" and get round the local community by offering occasional "family friendly" films chosen by a pastor.

The sooner the organisation accepts it cannot use the building for the purpose it was bought, religious services and events, the sooner it will realise it's time to sell and move on. They certainly should be searching for venues that are set within the community they serve not miles away but part of the pentecostal MO is evangelising. It's not just 25 Church Road that KICC would like to convert but the entire population! Seems to me that this is nowt but a massive pyramid selling scheme wrapped up as a religious charity.