Bell Green Gasworks site

[Pat Trembath]

News has reached the Sydenham Society this morning that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Ruth Kelly, has recommended that the planning applications for Bell Green Gasworks site be granted.
The reports are still being read and analysed.

[DaveT]

To quote from the castlemore website ( see http://www.castlemore.co.uk/news_detail ... =corporate ) :

The scheme will comprise 114,571 sq ft of business, industrial or warehouse units, 145,496 sq ft of non-food retail and an associated garden centre, and a 3,401 sq ft restaurant.
The approval also includes 640 car parking spaces and 125,000 sq ft of residential development incorporating 156 new units, of which 35% will be affordable.

I couldn't find any detail as to what the "restaurant" will be... McD drive thru? Please no...

as for the new housing units - reads very oddly - "of which 35% will be affordable" - well, at least that's honest. 65 % empty as nobody will be able to afford them then why build them? (I know....)

Construction scheduled to start next year, unit completion through 2008/2010.

[annabel mclaren]

Thanks for that Dave. The restaurant will not be 'drive-thru' - the Sydenham Society (and other concerned locals) kicked up such a fuss that this proposal was revised to a 'destination' restaurant (quaint idea here is that people visit it and sit down!) At the public inquiry Richard Jones, for the developer, was talking about something like TGI Fridays...

[Greg Whitehead]

I appreciate it may go against the grain but Bell Green REALLY needs a shot in the arm so any employment opportunities in what appears to be an incredibly deprived area ought to be surely welcomed? (pre, during and post build). Yes, there'll be a significant impact on traffic but for retail in the area? Unless it's going to 150,000 square foot of pound-shops then I can't see the High Street facing much competition as things currently stand.

I'm thinking along the lines of the Westfield Centre in White City but perhaps the differences are that the residents and potential workforce there embraced the potential regeneration benefits...even if it turns out to be a ghastly and horrid TGI Fridays.

How can the current barren wasteland serve any of the Bell Green residents and workforce in a positive manner? As still_robbo would say, this smacks on NIMBYism. I'm not happy that the restaurant will be C1toDE but will it affect the only decent business' on the High Street that I ever use...no! (by those I mean the Organic Shop, Ooola Boola, Gurkha's and Avalon etc)

[DaveT]

Greg - have you not used the local DIY stores? [ I've used the one on the High St by the Mayow Rd junction ]

I've found that shop much better than Homebase - primarily because if they do not have something in stock that I need, they will still try to order it for me(so far, successfully in all but 1 ocurrence). Homebase - get a product in for one customer??? pah - no chance. Hence, I don't want to see that shop go.

Pound shops... well, IMO one is enough - and bookies and estate agents - well - it appears that business is enough to support them. [ sorry, Turf Accountants ]

NIMBY - is that "not in my back yard?" if so - I see your point, but, having read through the SydSoc proposals I'd have to say they were constructive - and were not just about blocking the works fullstop...


C1toDE... lost me again.. hmm, I need to get an educashion.

[Annie]

I am quite excited at the prospect of Bell Green being "Developed"it has been a mess for far too long in my opinion.
Shame it will disrupt the wild life that has had time to get established,
but something had to be done.

[Greg Whitehead]

Greg - have you not used the local DIY stores? [ I've used the one on the High St by the Mayow Rd junction ]

I've found that shop much better than Homebase - primarily because if they do not have something in stock that I need, they will still try to order it for me(so far, successfully in all but 1 ocurrence). Homebase - get a product in for one customer??? pah - no chance. Hence, I don't want to see that shop go.

Pound shops... well, IMO one is enough - and bookies and estate agents - well - it appears that business is enough to support them. [ sorry, Turf Accountants ]

NIMBY - is that "not in my back yard?" if so - I see your point, but, having read through the SydSoc proposals I'd have to say they were constructive - and were not just about blocking the works fullstop...


C1toDE... lost me again.. hmm, I need to get an educashion.

Hi DaveT,

Yep, I've used that one many times. My preference, however, is the one at the railway bridge immediately as you leave Lower Sydenham and hit Upper Sydenham (right by the book store opposite The Greyhound). I'll continue to use that as it's most convenient and they're a very friendly bunch. I support local business' whenever and wherever possible although I draw a very clear line at most of the current 'selection' - interesting that alot of the thrift stores and the like don't seem to be flourishing either...perhaps the dynamic of Sydenham has shifted 'upwards' to the degree that pawn shops and £stores are no longer as welcomed by the numbers they once were.

The more estate agents the better IMO, to me they're a good sign of a healthy local housing market (i.e. demand)

[castiron73]

The DIY shop by the bookstore has everything you want. Homebase is full of cushions and nick-nacks and the staff in these sheds are never very knowledgeable. I'd hate to see another one go in down the road.

I want Bell Green to be done up but I hate the fact it's going to be just another anonymous retail park

[Greg Whitehead]

I hate it too castiron73 - a souless retail park is not what I was after but I do welcome the investment and in trying to smarten up the area (albeit in a very C1toDE way). Let's face it, it's Bell Green, it's the middle of a huge traffic system and so the fact it's not a Bingo Hall or something even worse is to be commended. I doubt I'll ever set foot in the place (TGI Friday) but I'd say their choice of outlet does fit the profile of the area (with it's close proximity to Catford).

It was hardly ever going to be a Waitrose and whatever it ends up being it'll be an improvment on what is currently there...

[castiron73]

The thing to do know is give as much support to our local shops as possible. In return, though, they might like to try catering to everyone in the area.

The Dolphin is a good sign. Slatters could start selling a wide range of speciality breads, rather than just white or wholemeal. People who can spend a fortune on a cake might like some sunflower seeds on top of their loaves. They might even like some deli stuff as well as all the pasties. Look at Waitrose. All it takes is to dust icing sugar on your doughnuts instead of granulated.
And Somerfield and all you grocers, doesn't the fact that there's always a shelf full of Mother's Pride/Sunblest left after all the multigrain stuff has sold out, tell you something?

[Juwlz]

Yeah castiron73 I agree about the bread. I have to wait til saturday when I can get some bread from the store in the stall in north cross road (east dulwich). The same people have a shop opposite Herne Hill Station- I don't know what its called sorry. Their bread is great - not only does it taste nice but it lasts ages without going all funny, which is what happens to all other bread. When you don't have a big family you can't eat a whole loaf all that quickly.

[reasontobecheerful]

Hmmmm...TGI Fridays.
Ribs taste good, Steak tastes good.
Hmmmm...Beer!

[leaf]

*i like tgi fridays too!

[showing my class eh greg ]

[Greg Whitehead]

No, no Leaf - I'm a secret TGI Friday fan in the same way I take The Sunday Times and The Mirror on Sunday - coarse with fine What I really mean is it could have been something much worse so we should be happy...I guess.

[Juwlz]

I hate TGI Fridays, but that doesn't mean to say that I think everything should cater to me only. Plenty of people like TGI Fridays, its great for kids etc so it is probably an ok choice. I can't really think of anything else. Though a giant pizza express would be nice.

[kster]

I too think it is good that the development got the go ahead, I think that the Sydenham Society (and others) should be congratulated in getting some changes made to the original proposal. Whilst I’m not a fan of TGIs it is a huge improvement on a drive thru KFC or McDs. I have to disagree with Greg, I doubt the catchment for a TGI’s is as wide as C1C2DE (which is over 80% of the population), I would say more C1C2. Still rather that than a Pizza Express.

NB for the benefit of DaveT (and anyone else unfamiliar with what a C1 or DE is), it is a social demographic classification (A – High court judge, CEO, B – Intermediate management/professional, C1 – Junior manager/teachers, C2 – skilled manual, D – Unskilled manual worker, E – Unemployed / state pensioner).

[BingBong]

No one's yet addressed the traffic. It's already virtually walking pace trying to get from the top of Sydenham to the lower end (I mean the hill, not social class). How much worse will it be if Bell Green becomes a 'destination' out of town venue?

That said, the arrival of the tube line in 2010 to our bit of sarf'east London has already seen a pick up in what's available in Forest Hill, so maybe Bell Green could attract some more interesting retailers than we're all fearing.

You can't even get a decent cup of coffee in Sydenham yet, so somewhere to eat that's TGI Friday ish wouldn't be amiss.

We've already seen off yet another bookies on the House of Curtains site, so maybe slowly, slowly, a bit of class might be inching its way towards us?

[Big Ben]

It will be a great deal worse - at the public inquiry the traffic engineers argued that the situation re traffic would not change significantly with the retail park, but given that the new 'destination' is car dependant (the economics of the big sheds would not stack up if it wasn't) then the only conclusion those who oppose the scheme can come to is that there will be increases all around Sydenham. As for 'class'... TGI Friday is better than McDonald or Burger King, but it's an 'aspiration' on the part of the developer and nothing is as yet signed up. Better to lobby for the high street coffee shop rather than wait for one to open up at Bell Green!

[Greg Whitehead]

so maybe Bell Green could attract some more interesting retailers than we're all fearing.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Remember, this (Bell Green) is a wasteland in the middle of a very busy and very large stretch stretch of road and is surrounded by pretty much abject poverty so there'll be no chance of a satellite branch of John Lewis anytime soon...

There's obscene wealth to be found in Beckenham and more than a good few parts of Sydenham but I do not see that this has been factored in by the developers. On that basis I'm saying my prayers that it's something 'only' as bad a TGI Friday. TBH did we ever expect this development to suit the needs of the denizens of the Thorpes, Trewsbury Road or Upper Sydenham (etc, etc, etc add street name to suit)? I doubt many of us will ever set foot in the place but we can surely admit it's an improvement?

[annabel mclaren]

Greg - I certainly don't think it's an improvement! The fenced off area behind the gasworks is currently an amazing 'meadow' which supports an incredible habitat of varied plants, birds and insects (see the article in the last Sydenham Society Newsletter for more details) which could have been classified as an SSSI if there had been the political determination to do this - we could have ended up with a country park or a managed nature reserve with wonderful walks etc. Alternatively, the Sydenham Society's proposal of eco-friendly housing would have co-existed happily with Sainsbury's in its current form. The development with which we will have to live for decades will bring us more traffic, dreary shopping (of the Carpetland, DFS Sofas, Homebase variety) and some residential. It's all very well saying we don't have to go there, but the residents of the adjoining roads (many of whom were objectors and participants in the Inquiry) will have to live alongside it and cope with the after-effects. It could have been so good - what is really depressing is to see 20 acres covered in concrete for yet another retail park, when we could have had an amenity that would have enhanced the area - and given a boost to the high street.