Roadworks in Kirkdale??
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richpickings
- Posts: 75
- Joined: 15 Oct 2006 17:05
- Location: Ex of Kirkdale
Roadworks in Kirkdale??
A load of markings and notes have been painted on the pavements on Kirkdale. It looks like they might be about to dig them up. Does anyone know what's going on?
Re: Roadworks in Kirkdale??
richpickings wrote:A load of markings and notes have been painted on the pavements on Kirkdale. It looks like they might be about to dig them up. Does anyone know what's going on?
Sometime ago there was talk of a bus lane from Cobbs Corner to Peak Hill..............could it be that?
oh no.The idea is that cars on the right hand side of Kirkdale (looking up the hill) will park on the verge to make room for a bus lane where the cars are now parked and a lane for other vehicles on the outside. This parking area will start about 10 metres beyond the plumbers shop. (I'm not supporting the scheme - only telling you what will happen. This is a TFL scheme and TFL don't operate under the normal rules of democracy).
One of the problems with Kirkdale is that the queue has been made worse since the new roundabout restricted access to vehicles wanting to turn right at the roundabout and go up Westwood Hill. Before the new roundabout construction a right hand lane of traffic could form at entrance to the roundabout - but not now.
Leaf - there are 3 sets of traffic lights on the core shopping area of Syd Rd - one controlling access to Newlands Park, one allowing pedestrians to cross and one which controls access to Mayow Road. Which particular traffic lights would you remove and what would then happen to these access points? Please don't say you want to remove all of them - give us a sensible answer if you believe there is a solution.
One of the problems with Kirkdale is that the queue has been made worse since the new roundabout restricted access to vehicles wanting to turn right at the roundabout and go up Westwood Hill. Before the new roundabout construction a right hand lane of traffic could form at entrance to the roundabout - but not now.
Leaf - there are 3 sets of traffic lights on the core shopping area of Syd Rd - one controlling access to Newlands Park, one allowing pedestrians to cross and one which controls access to Mayow Road. Which particular traffic lights would you remove and what would then happen to these access points? Please don't say you want to remove all of them - give us a sensible answer if you believe there is a solution.
nasaroc
thanks for the info.
on the traffic lights issue i will first point out that i am a pedestrian not a frustrated car driver!
do you remember the old traffic lights?
one set opposite what was then safeways[now somerfield]
the other set were i think a little further up the rd than they are now[outside the butchers].
in my opinion that was efficient,the traffic lights on the bottom by mayow rd are so dangerous,the stream of traffic that turns right onto syd rd from mayow rd often just follows the car in front without bothering to see that the lights have changed and the green man is indicating it is safe for me and my children to cross,there have been several occasions where we have narrowly missed being hit by cars.
you only need to look at the recent demolition of the railings there to see that this IS an unsafe set of lights for both cars and pedestrians.
have you ever been standing on the middle bit of that crossing waiting for the lights to change in what is a tiny space,when a bus turns from mayow rd into syd rd?
it is hairy to say the least.
under the old way,which included a wider rd,there was room for two lanes of traffic,there was never the congestion that there is now.
i know it wont ever happen but i think going back to that would benefit everyone.
i worry when they do things that chop away at pedestrian space,are we being encouraged to walk more and lead a less sedantry lifestyle?
i choose walking over cars and buses any day,but i feel i am taking mine and my childrens lives in my hands when we do along syd rd at times,i feel this will make it worse.
thanks for the info.
on the traffic lights issue i will first point out that i am a pedestrian not a frustrated car driver!
do you remember the old traffic lights?
one set opposite what was then safeways[now somerfield]
the other set were i think a little further up the rd than they are now[outside the butchers].
in my opinion that was efficient,the traffic lights on the bottom by mayow rd are so dangerous,the stream of traffic that turns right onto syd rd from mayow rd often just follows the car in front without bothering to see that the lights have changed and the green man is indicating it is safe for me and my children to cross,there have been several occasions where we have narrowly missed being hit by cars.
you only need to look at the recent demolition of the railings there to see that this IS an unsafe set of lights for both cars and pedestrians.
have you ever been standing on the middle bit of that crossing waiting for the lights to change in what is a tiny space,when a bus turns from mayow rd into syd rd?
it is hairy to say the least.
under the old way,which included a wider rd,there was room for two lanes of traffic,there was never the congestion that there is now.
i know it wont ever happen but i think going back to that would benefit everyone.
i worry when they do things that chop away at pedestrian space,are we being encouraged to walk more and lead a less sedantry lifestyle?
i choose walking over cars and buses any day,but i feel i am taking mine and my childrens lives in my hands when we do along syd rd at times,i feel this will make it worse.
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
No leaf. The congestion is caused by the road planner's last *improvement*. Traffic turning right used to be able to filter around in the right hand lane. Now, of course, combined with the people turning left they cause an excessive backup.
The planners are in denial over this roundabout ("its not wobbly", "we haven't narrowed it").
So having caused congestion they now use this to justify further chaos. The only logical conclusion is that this is a predetermined plan to disrupt personal transportation to favour and profit such public spirited companies as Stagecoach etc... That is of course if you believe they are capable of being logical!
Oh on the subject of Bus Lanes - can someone tell me why the Sydenham bound lane on Crystal Palace Parade is 24 hour? Its lethal after 11pm when there are very few buses or any congestion. You get bushwacked by speeding drivers who may be rather tired or emotional. I find it really scary. Is there any mechanism for asking them to review it. 7am to 7pm would surely be reasonable - or to allow us on motorcycles to use it and keep out of the way of madmen as before?
The planners are in denial over this roundabout ("its not wobbly", "we haven't narrowed it").
So having caused congestion they now use this to justify further chaos. The only logical conclusion is that this is a predetermined plan to disrupt personal transportation to favour and profit such public spirited companies as Stagecoach etc... That is of course if you believe they are capable of being logical!
Oh on the subject of Bus Lanes - can someone tell me why the Sydenham bound lane on Crystal Palace Parade is 24 hour? Its lethal after 11pm when there are very few buses or any congestion. You get bushwacked by speeding drivers who may be rather tired or emotional. I find it really scary. Is there any mechanism for asking them to review it. 7am to 7pm would surely be reasonable - or to allow us on motorcycles to use it and keep out of the way of madmen as before?
There reallly is no easy solution to traffic/pedestrian problems in a era when there are more and more vehicles on the road and when statistics tell us that in the next ten years traffic in our borough will increase by a further 30 per cent. No amount of shifting roundabouts, moving traffic lights or crossings is going to work because as soon as you clear the roads even more cars come along to fill the available space.
Look at Sydenham during the evening rush hour jams up Westwood Hill only occured during the evening rush hours. Now, jams start on the other side of the the two mini-roundabouts on Crystal Palace Parade then file down Westwood Hill towards Lower Sydenham.
I am simply dumbfounded when people tell me these queues are all down to traffic engineers or the road layout. If we only altered this roundabout a little or changed this traffic light system, traffic would suddenly flow smoothly. Yes, there are problems with some road layouts - Cobb's Corner roundabout is a prime example - and we should change these. But even if we did, this would make very little difference to the jams currently blighting much of Sydenham. They are caused by one simple thing - more and more vehicles using the roads.
I support Leaf in her aim to favour pedestrians over vehicles. But to do that we have to have a huge cultural change in our attitude to the car. And frankly, I don't see that happening. Altering the layout of Syd Road as you suggest Leaf whilst retaining the current freedom of movement of the car would simply result in worse conditions for pedestrians - for example, cars unable to turn right out of Mayow Road would rat run through narrow adjoining streets instead. You may partially cure the problem for pedestrians crossing opposite Somerfield but you make it worse for pedestrians elsewhere.
The answer is to shut off residential roads to through traffic and keep traffic to the main roads with many more safe crossings for pedestrians - but try that and see how far you get with the car lobby!
Look at Sydenham during the evening rush hour jams up Westwood Hill only occured during the evening rush hours. Now, jams start on the other side of the the two mini-roundabouts on Crystal Palace Parade then file down Westwood Hill towards Lower Sydenham.
I am simply dumbfounded when people tell me these queues are all down to traffic engineers or the road layout. If we only altered this roundabout a little or changed this traffic light system, traffic would suddenly flow smoothly. Yes, there are problems with some road layouts - Cobb's Corner roundabout is a prime example - and we should change these. But even if we did, this would make very little difference to the jams currently blighting much of Sydenham. They are caused by one simple thing - more and more vehicles using the roads.
I support Leaf in her aim to favour pedestrians over vehicles. But to do that we have to have a huge cultural change in our attitude to the car. And frankly, I don't see that happening. Altering the layout of Syd Road as you suggest Leaf whilst retaining the current freedom of movement of the car would simply result in worse conditions for pedestrians - for example, cars unable to turn right out of Mayow Road would rat run through narrow adjoining streets instead. You may partially cure the problem for pedestrians crossing opposite Somerfield but you make it worse for pedestrians elsewhere.
The answer is to shut off residential roads to through traffic and keep traffic to the main roads with many more safe crossings for pedestrians - but try that and see how far you get with the car lobby!
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Illuminance
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The technology is around (has been for some years now) for all these sets of traffic signals to 'talk' to each other and optimise the flows of traffic and pedestrian cycles.
The money spent on the road at Cobbs Corner might have paid for one of these systems as an upgrade to the existing signalled junctions, a visit from Astrid and Ingrid and maybe have change left over to send some of the contractors on a course in building level roundabouts.
The money spent on the road at Cobbs Corner might have paid for one of these systems as an upgrade to the existing signalled junctions, a visit from Astrid and Ingrid and maybe have change left over to send some of the contractors on a course in building level roundabouts.
It may be difficult to believe but all three sets of traffic lights in Sydenham Road ARE fitted with the latest technology as you describe Illuminance.
About eighteen months ago, after complaining about the phasing of the lights between Newlands Park and Sydenham Road, I was invited by TFL engineers to said traffic lights where the engineers gave me a full demonstration of the technology.
They then switched off the system and told me if I could do any better why didn't I try to change the lights manually. Within minutes both Newlands Park and Sydenham Road were stationary as far as the eye could see.
A salutary experience which finally convinced me that "it ain't the system it's the traffic, stupid!". Nevertheless one of the most exciting events of my adult life, easily ranking alongside the rehanging of my back bedroom curtains this past Sunday afternoon.
About eighteen months ago, after complaining about the phasing of the lights between Newlands Park and Sydenham Road, I was invited by TFL engineers to said traffic lights where the engineers gave me a full demonstration of the technology.
They then switched off the system and told me if I could do any better why didn't I try to change the lights manually. Within minutes both Newlands Park and Sydenham Road were stationary as far as the eye could see.
A salutary experience which finally convinced me that "it ain't the system it's the traffic, stupid!". Nevertheless one of the most exciting events of my adult life, easily ranking alongside the rehanging of my back bedroom curtains this past Sunday afternoon.
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
I was not telling you that and I would be dumfoundered if you thought I was. There are two different issues here:nasaroc wrote:I am simply dumbfounded when people tell me these queues are all down to traffic engineers or the road layout. If we only altered this roundabout a little or changed this traffic light system, traffic would suddenly flow smoothly.
* The amount of traffic
* The flow of traffic
We surely want to maximise the latter (and by traffic we mean the mix of two leg, two wheel and four wheel). Anybody who has the vaguest knowledge of modelling traffic flow will know this is not the objective of our current road engineers in Lewisham (or if it is they are unbelievably bad at it). Hence Sydenham 'locks' at a far lower level of traffic than need be and transit times are much greater than they need be. The extra congestion is then used as a justification for bus lanes which decrease the amount of traffic that can be managed further.
Just to go back to my motorcycle. I bought that originally to help reduce my contribution to congestion. When that bus lane goes in - I will be forced to queue in line with an extended traffic jam adding to it instead of decreasing it. Oh - and its more dangerous too - which is why many pedestrians and cyclists quit the roads for 'safer' cars which makes an even greater nonsense of it.
Go to some continental cities with more enlightened attitudes despite even more constricted space for roads and you can see people moving - which is not a feature of Sydenham for increasing parts of the day. Oh and employment is usually associated with the movement of goods so we need to forget that too.
Growing traffic is a problem which this government has not addressed in an objective way. Stopping it by jamming it is easy but morally bankrupt and economic suicide.
well i did say i dont expect it to be changed.
does anyone remember how the road used to be?
i know the number of cars on the road has increased since the 'good old days',but i remember when the lights were first changed everyone said then what a cock up it was.
i dont think closing off residential rds will help,quite the opposite in fact,more traffic on the main rds,that sort of thing will only help those selling their homes,quiet street and all that.
does anyone remember how the road used to be?
i know the number of cars on the road has increased since the 'good old days',but i remember when the lights were first changed everyone said then what a cock up it was.
i dont think closing off residential rds will help,quite the opposite in fact,more traffic on the main rds,that sort of thing will only help those selling their homes,quiet street and all that.
Paddy - just to help me out (and perhaps others reading this thread), could you name three continental cities with "even more constricted space for roads" than our area of south London who have achieved the result of making both road traffic and pedestrians move more freely and quickly and then tell us how you would (in broad terms) achieve this in the core area of Sydenham Road.
I'd agree entirely (as I'm sure most locals would) with your comments about the roundabout so could you concentrate on the core area of Sydenham Road where most jams occur and where most pedestrians are to be found?
I'd agree entirely (as I'm sure most locals would) with your comments about the roundabout so could you concentrate on the core area of Sydenham Road where most jams occur and where most pedestrians are to be found?
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
Nasaroc - you are being a bit naughty (for the second time in this thread) by avoiding the quote system to suggest I said something I didn't. You then follow this up by asking a question you should know I couldn't or shouldn't answer on the available evidence to me.
To take up the last point: it can be easy and academically acceptable to disprove a false thesis (or in this case that the road engineers are maximising traffic flow). To create an alternate thesis is hard. Without proper resources and data you simply can't effectively model and hence explore better integrated transport systems that fit a particular environment. You, yourself, decry simple solutions and on that I agree. Simple solutions is just what I see our road engineers doing.
Three continental places I have enjoyed 'moving around' are Pisa, Brugges almost any place in Holland in their different ways. Foot & 2 wheel is wonderful and great expense has not been spared to integrate 4 wheels into the equation.
Here we appear to take special pleasure in making it all so unpleasant. For example I can't remember the last time I used a continental bus that was not air-conditioned. The 176 by contrast - in August - often has the heaters on! That wobbly roundabout that we will now spend even more hours trying to navigate safely would in France or Spain be the base of an architectual or artistic masterpiece. I've seen harbours, roman ruins, amazonian jungles.
I fear the real problem is ourselves - we make do. We don't appear to have the aspiration to make our environment a really better place based on sound analysis and not fudging choices. That's why I think most continental towns and cities are far better places then they were 30 years ago when I came to London. I don't think we can say that about here. Do you?
To take up the last point: it can be easy and academically acceptable to disprove a false thesis (or in this case that the road engineers are maximising traffic flow). To create an alternate thesis is hard. Without proper resources and data you simply can't effectively model and hence explore better integrated transport systems that fit a particular environment. You, yourself, decry simple solutions and on that I agree. Simple solutions is just what I see our road engineers doing.
Three continental places I have enjoyed 'moving around' are Pisa, Brugges almost any place in Holland in their different ways. Foot & 2 wheel is wonderful and great expense has not been spared to integrate 4 wheels into the equation.
Here we appear to take special pleasure in making it all so unpleasant. For example I can't remember the last time I used a continental bus that was not air-conditioned. The 176 by contrast - in August - often has the heaters on! That wobbly roundabout that we will now spend even more hours trying to navigate safely would in France or Spain be the base of an architectual or artistic masterpiece. I've seen harbours, roman ruins, amazonian jungles.
I fear the real problem is ourselves - we make do. We don't appear to have the aspiration to make our environment a really better place based on sound analysis and not fudging choices. That's why I think most continental towns and cities are far better places then they were 30 years ago when I came to London. I don't think we can say that about here. Do you?
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
So, unless I'm missing something, this bus route will only aid the 176 and 202 heading up Kirkdale...a route which is currently really quite free flowing? I was of the opinion that the main problems with traffic were at Kirkdale heading downhill into Lower Sydenham and on Sydenham High Street heading in the opposite direction toward Upper Sydenham and Sydenham Hill? If so and the bus route is rather pointless then what wonderful misappropriation of funds.
@ Leaf I think you have a point. The pressure on the middle-set of traffic lights, opposite the Post Office, is caused (for me) by those walking up and down the hill who don't want to risk crossing at the junction of Newlands Park (you know the bit by the bookies?). It's a bit of a lottery crossing there. You can be hit by traffic turning right and left from Sydenham High Street towards Penge and from Penge into Lower Syd - basically a 1in3 chance and you're never quite sure when's safe to cross. I'd be quite happy to not use the crossing opposite the P.O. (and as a result it potentially could be removed) if I could safely cross at the "Newlands Road junction" (if that makes sense). I know of a few others who feel the same.
@ Leaf I think you have a point. The pressure on the middle-set of traffic lights, opposite the Post Office, is caused (for me) by those walking up and down the hill who don't want to risk crossing at the junction of Newlands Park (you know the bit by the bookies?). It's a bit of a lottery crossing there. You can be hit by traffic turning right and left from Sydenham High Street towards Penge and from Penge into Lower Syd - basically a 1in3 chance and you're never quite sure when's safe to cross. I'd be quite happy to not use the crossing opposite the P.O. (and as a result it potentially could be removed) if I could safely cross at the "Newlands Road junction" (if that makes sense). I know of a few others who feel the same.
Paddy - I agree with much of what you say. We do have a very poor record of street design and traffic management in this country. However, I would register a slight degree of caution when I hear you talk of Bruges and the Dutch cities having a better approach to this problem. These cities have sensibly done this by largely banning the motor car from their centres, pedestrianising large areas or making parking for vehicles absurdly expensive or non-existent. There simply isn't a win-win situation when pedestrians and cars are in the same location
I'm rather surprised that you didn't mention Venice. Here, surely is city that has totally solved its vehicular traffic problems! Is there something that we in Sydenham could learn from this elegant city?
Having said all of this I am amazed that you simply cannot come up with even one solution for Sydenham Road. Why wait for the experts? Surely you know the High Street and its problems better than any of these engineers you believe have been misleading us for so long? Thank goodness for the Whitehead approach - straight in with both feet (in the nicest possible way!). Get rid of the ability of pedestrians to cross the road at the busiest part of the High Street - that'll speed up the traffic flow!
I'm rather surprised that you didn't mention Venice. Here, surely is city that has totally solved its vehicular traffic problems! Is there something that we in Sydenham could learn from this elegant city?
Having said all of this I am amazed that you simply cannot come up with even one solution for Sydenham Road. Why wait for the experts? Surely you know the High Street and its problems better than any of these engineers you believe have been misleading us for so long? Thank goodness for the Whitehead approach - straight in with both feet (in the nicest possible way!). Get rid of the ability of pedestrians to cross the road at the busiest part of the High Street - that'll speed up the traffic flow!
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Greg Whitehead
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- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Hi Nasaroc,
Bad morning?
Sorry for speaking out on matters that seem to rile you. I didn't mean it in that way.
All I meant was that the crossing at the P.O. might not be needed and therefore traffic could go a little bit more quickly if people didn't have to cross by the P.O. and crossed at the Newland Road Juntion [up and over, as it were] Currently this 'NRJ' is a bit of a mad-dash and a hazard to be avoided.
I'll go away and leave you and Paddy to it. Unless I've gotten your tone wrong I thought this suggestion might be pretty workable and I'm with Leaf in that there are some crossings that to the casual observer (her & I) seem to be needless and I'd point out that I'm also 100% pedestrian - I choose not to have a car.
Bad morning?
Sorry for speaking out on matters that seem to rile you. I didn't mean it in that way.
All I meant was that the crossing at the P.O. might not be needed and therefore traffic could go a little bit more quickly if people didn't have to cross by the P.O. and crossed at the Newland Road Juntion [up and over, as it were] Currently this 'NRJ' is a bit of a mad-dash and a hazard to be avoided.
I'll go away and leave you and Paddy to it. Unless I've gotten your tone wrong I thought this suggestion might be pretty workable and I'm with Leaf in that there are some crossings that to the casual observer (her & I) seem to be needless and I'd point out that I'm also 100% pedestrian - I choose not to have a car.
No I've had a marvellous morning actually. It's just that I think the crossing by the PO is in the centre of the high street and is essential for pedestrians. Why punish the pedestrian for the fact that more and more people want to take to the road in cars?
If you want any further proof that the problem is not the road system, look around this area in the next few days while the kids are on half-term holiday. Suddenly, the whole road system functions fairly well because we are back to volumes of traffic we enjoyed 15 years ago.
Tampering around with this junction or the next will not work. Tackle the motor car!
If you want any further proof that the problem is not the road system, look around this area in the next few days while the kids are on half-term holiday. Suddenly, the whole road system functions fairly well because we are back to volumes of traffic we enjoyed 15 years ago.
Tampering around with this junction or the next will not work. Tackle the motor car!
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Hear! Hear!.nasaroc wrote:
If you want any further proof that the problem is not the road system, look around this area in the next few days while the kids are on half-term holiday. Suddenly, the whole road system functions fairly well because we are back to volumes of traffic we enjoyed 15 years ago.
It doesn't go un-noticed how many cars are one Mother and one child on the school run - yes, that may be a whole other debate but as far as I'm concerned if Hyacinth really must go to Sydenham High for Girls then it surely makes sense to live closer? People also tell me part of the problem with the High Street is people getting off the South Circular at Catford and heading to rejoin it at Forest Hill using Sydenham as a cut through.