The Sydenham Pound?

[a_baron]

I was going to raise this at the library meeting last night but felt the issue was too large. What would be the prospects of Sydenham or maybe Lewisham following in the footsteps of Brixton with a local currency?

See http://www.financialreform.info/f_r_morning_star.html

for starters.

[bigbadwolf]

Ah yes, the Brixton Pound. I remember it well.

[a_baron]

Well, what about it? I take it the Brixton pound is still going?

[blue&whitewizard1991]

A gimmick, and very expensive to run. To say local currency schemes have had mixed success is very forgiving. They can only ever claim to have been a success in middle class affluent market towns like Totnes or Lewes and even then the arguement against is quite convincing.

Would people spend more money in the local nail bar if they gave 10% off with a Sydenham pound? I Thought not.

[stone-penge]

Would people spend more money in the local nail bar if they gave 10% off with a Sydenham pound? I Thought not.

They could instead offer to do the eleventh nail for free.

[mummycat]

toodle

[blue&whitewizard1991]

They can only ever claim to have been a success in middle class affluent market towns like Totnes or Lewes and even then the arguement against is quite convincing.

Totnes and Lewes are very successful Transition Towns. Sydenham is also now an official Transition Town - but it's not just about growing your own!

The reason why the Totnes and Lewes pounds work is that there is a huge supportive community interested in generating own goods in their own town, to keep the money in their own town. We're talking knitting jumpers, baking cakes (not using machinery), vegetarian shoe-making, creating greetings cards and gifts, hand-made chocolates, etc. to sell at local markets.

The Transition Town concept may be working but the role played by local currency schemes in contributing to transition towns, is very dubious. The cost of operating with dual currencies is disproprtionate to the benefit to the local economy. The examples you provide in Totnes and Lewes would work even without a local currency scheme because people are interetsed in buying those products locally anyway.

[bigbadwolf]

I take it the Brixton pound is still going?

No, like with any stupid poorly planned gimmick, its creators are just hoping that everyone forgets about their folly.

Whatever next. Local Air Miles?

[Eagle]

What possible advantage would there be for all the expenditure involved. Who would be on the notes , Shackleton , W G Grace , axe murderer at The Golden Lion.
Someone mentioned would be useful to use in a nail shop. I go to Sydenham DIY often and quite happy to use British Currency for my nail and screws.

[bigbadwolf]

Aside from the issues focusing on practicality, local interest and cost, I'm just not convinced that a 'currency' that looks like it's printed by the Bank of Toyland would instill any confidence in customers and traders alike.

No, like the rest of the country, I'll just make do with Sterling.

[carl]

The problem with posting a request for feedback about a local currency, any local currency --anywhere, is that everyone suddenly becomes an expert and will tell you why it would fail.

It won't work because....
It looks like Toyland currency...
There's no big spenders to use it...
The cost is too high....

Most if not all of the people here have never used a local currency but suddenly they all know more any you!!

Well, local currency works.

Posting on any board will just get you negative feedback but don't let it slow you down.

Find out if your community could use a local trading scheme such as LETS or a timebank, these are also local currencies but not in the paper note format. These local systems target other segments of your community like older folks, out of work people, those without tons of money. There are plenty of local currency schemes which will benefit your town just find the ones that will work for you and don't listen to the peanut gallery of BB comments.

http://www.cxss.org.uk/drupal51/

These are voluntary systems, those who think of failure or bad mouth a program, well just don't use it, it is not required. Just like clipping coupons, if you think it's stupid, don't clip, but a lot of people will.

Carl
http://ccmag.net

[Tim Lund]

Even though I post from time to time on the 'Transition Sydenham now an official Transition Town' thread, I'm not actually a member of this group - I just share some of its aims - like getting people to do more gardening, in particular growing things to eat.

But on the subject of a Sydenham Pound - well, I'm with BBW. I first came across LETS schemes about 15 years ago, and while they may have some community building value, they are clearly no substitute for the simplicity of ordinary money.

Carl says:

Well, local currency works.

which begs the question - what is your criterion for saying they work? In the last 15 years they haven't taken over the world - so how long should we wait?

As well as adding unnecessary transaction costs, LETS and the like have another major economic flaw - at least from any non-utopian left wing view point. This is that every one earns the currency units by providing their time at the same rate. In other words, the price of everyone's labour is the same. I'm radical enough to like the idea of organisations which limit how much the top person gets paid relative the least well paid - Ben and Jerry's used to be like this, and that really did work - but I really don't see LETS, Sydenham Pounds, etc. ever functioning outside fairly small groups of the ideologically committed.

[Tim Lund]

BBW - I happen to have a Brixton Pound note, so in the unlikely event that you are actually interested in what it looks like - here it is

[bigbadwolf]

Well, as long as you can snort a line of coke through it, I'm sure the natives of Brixton will welcome this funny money with open arms.

I, on the otherhand, think it's embarrassing.

[Eagle]

I would imagine easier to forge than the state currency.

[Ronski]

I think it's quite an interesting idea for keeping currency local rather than going larger supermarket etc...
http://brixtonpound.org/what/

Not sure if it would here but I hope it succeeds there.

[carl]

"...they are clearly no substitute for the simplicity of ordinary money."

Tim, the thing is with these local currency systems, none of them are meant to be a substitute for actual national money. No LETS system can take the place of money, and no local currency could ever replace the Pound either. All of these systems work alongside the "simple" national currency, you don't give up your bank account when you sign up for a LETS or accept some Brixton Pounds these are just additional tools we use to increase trade in our areas. I agree completely with you, we can't replace money using some mutual credit system and all sit around camp fires singing songs holding hands. (you simple can't buy a flatscreen TV or pay for a prescription with local currency, won't happen!) Of course not.

One correction for you, LETS are not as you describe, LETS permit you to value goods and services at market prices. So if you think your time as a house painter is valuable you can charge more than one unit per hour. LETS is more of a barter system made for trading, that is ....people without big cash to spend but who have stuff and want to exchange it with others locally. These type of systems are almost free to set up, http://www.ces.org.za/ there is no big cost other than if you meet at the Pub once a week to discuss trading and see what others have, you still have to buy drinks! But look, I agree with you, if a guy has a new car every year and a great job with a pocket of cash...he's not going to participate in this stuff. It's not for everyone. A lot of mom's participate in these systems. Mom's who can't afford new toys each month so they bring in their old ones and often swap with other members, that is very popular.

Timebanks are the creature you speak of -- that values everyone's time equally. These are great system if it's right for you but certainly not suitable everyday commerce. This program is best for the aged or the people who just can't get a job for whatever reason. If you are 15yrs old and just can't get hired, you may want to consider a TB, or if you are 70 and can teach piano lessons to kids, a TB would be great for you, and then spend the credits and have the 15yr old to cut your grass. etc. In this case, the unit of time, is not valued by the marketplace, a TB unit is equal for all who participate and it's also NOT taxed, a contribution of time is a donation and not taxed, which also has a different benefit for those users. A transaction in LETS which is a sort of barter system, is a taxable event.

The Timebank is the very very basic starting point for those in the community with extra time. The LETS is a place for local to get together and swap cool old stuff, services or other goods.(barter). The local paper note, does neither of those, it encourages shoppers to use local stores over big chains. They are all called local currency but they all do something quite different. There is no way to say which would work in your area, if any, but they all operate alongside the national money. In no case is anyone saying these will take the place of the Pound or dollar, that does not happen. If your community is suffering, try one of these. Also they are not mutually exclusive, you can have all three operating at the same time alongside the Pound Sterling. Many communities do.

[Tim Lund]

Carl:

Thanks for pointing out that I was confusing Timebanks with LETS schemes - I'll think a bit more about what you write. In the meantime, what is criterion you use to say 'local currency works'? Is it simply that people use them? - in which case, how many people need to be using them for it to count as success? Are there not other approaches to encouraging local shops which might work as well or better?

Tim

[blue&whitewizard1991]

Carl I think you are being a little unfair to suggest that people dont know anything about local currency schemes, just because they happen to disagree with the idea of a Sydenham pound.

I am very familiar with LETS schemes, timebanks and dual currency schemes such as the Brixton pound. I will admit that my earlier posts have perhaps confused through inconsistent language. When I referred to the lack of success of local currency schemes I was excluding reference to LETS and timebanks and referring directly to the post title 'the Sydenham pound'. I accept that all three could however be referred to as local currency schemes and in that sense the timebank and LETS schemes offer a much stronger 'value for money' arguement than the local pound concept.

To try and articulate my original point more elequently, I will say that there is little prospect of a Sydenham pound having a transformative effect on local trading and supporting enterprise growth locally. Furthermore the cost of operating a credible dual currency (aka Sydenham pound) scheme, vastly outweighs any benefit accrued in communties such as Brixton. I am aware of may local authorities and charitable organisations who have looked at replicating the Brixton pound scheme and have avoided doing so, precisely because it doesnt work.

LETS on the other hand, I would quite agree is a much more workable and effective intervention.

[simon]

As I see it, local currency schemes as described above are still underpinned by the same property relations that support the national currencies. It is property rights and their distribution, not the means of exchange, that is the pertinent issue, in my opinion.
How's Portland, Oregon these days Carl? Always wanted to visit it myself, but haven't got enough of these damn GB£s.