sorry charlie, I have no idea.
i was given the information via a friend of a friend - but they were pretty adamant about it being kosher.
once its up and running, it cant be too long before ramsay takes over the wimpey, and marco p-w is doing up market fry ups in the hilltop cafe.
Middle Class Pubs
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Just as long as they leave the Jamican place all the way down by the gas-works well alone...
I'd do my best Harry Enfield impression " 'oi Oliver, whilst I respect your contribution to the eating habits of the Nations children and find your easy Cockney charm accessible, almost endearing, If you think you can come here with your fancy "bish, bosh shove it in the oven, sweet" ideas in Lower Sydenham, here at the Jamican salmonella place...I'd say NO!"
You'd have to know the sketch
I'd do my best Harry Enfield impression " 'oi Oliver, whilst I respect your contribution to the eating habits of the Nations children and find your easy Cockney charm accessible, almost endearing, If you think you can come here with your fancy "bish, bosh shove it in the oven, sweet" ideas in Lower Sydenham, here at the Jamican salmonella place...I'd say NO!"
You'd have to know the sketch
Hey Annie - no please not the jazz in the back of the pub - our house backs right onto that back function room! There is no sound insulation and for us it was hell on earth as they also used have the back door open.
We went to Lewisham council specifically when they were attempting to change the licence (extending the hours). Although we couldn't prevent the extension of hours we did get a condition attached to the licence that the back function room must not be used for entertainment or music purposes. A small victory but it has made a lot of difference to the quality of sleep we get these days.
Sorry to be a party pooper but sometimes these establishments just do not realise the nusiance they cause until it is pointed out to them. Unless you stand up for yourselves in a reasonable fashion you just get walked all over.
We went to Lewisham council specifically when they were attempting to change the licence (extending the hours). Although we couldn't prevent the extension of hours we did get a condition attached to the licence that the back function room must not be used for entertainment or music purposes. A small victory but it has made a lot of difference to the quality of sleep we get these days.
Sorry to be a party pooper but sometimes these establishments just do not realise the nusiance they cause until it is pointed out to them. Unless you stand up for yourselves in a reasonable fashion you just get walked all over.
hello gillyjp
do you think that the fact that live music isnt allowed to be played in the function room has had a bearing on the clientel that this pub attracts?
if because of this back room veto,it now means that Annie and other jazz lovers dont frequent the pub,this must have an affect on who uses the pub?
there is one sure fire way of getting rid of the teeny boppers et al,that is to bang out some jazz or rock music!
do you think that the fact that live music isnt allowed to be played in the function room has had a bearing on the clientel that this pub attracts?
if because of this back room veto,it now means that Annie and other jazz lovers dont frequent the pub,this must have an affect on who uses the pub?
there is one sure fire way of getting rid of the teeny boppers et al,that is to bang out some jazz or rock music!
Leaf - I truly think that the clientelle that the Greyhound was attracting was a direct result of the previous owners (Mitchell & Butler) not putting the money in needed to create the proper atmosphere and ambience. Also the previous Manager, whilst she did her best, was not supported by M & B and couldn't keep out the resulting questionable clientelle who were attracted to that sort of run down establishment. I certainly would not venture into a pub that has burly bouncers on the door and people parking in the disabled bays and everywhere else with music booming out of their cars and having their own sort of party without even going inside the pub itself!
However I do frequent the Dulwich Wood House, which is the sort of pub that is needed in Sydenham. I doubt the Greyhound will ever match up unfortunately, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.
Annie - Re the music - I have no objection to music being played elsewhere in the pub and if they installed some triple glazing, kept the back door closed and put in some air conditioning for the punters then we would all be happy bunnies. (I think). But lets give the new owners a chance - the Area Manager seemed anxious to please and was certainly very approachable and understanding and quick to respond to our initial concerns.
However I do frequent the Dulwich Wood House, which is the sort of pub that is needed in Sydenham. I doubt the Greyhound will ever match up unfortunately, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.
Annie - Re the music - I have no objection to music being played elsewhere in the pub and if they installed some triple glazing, kept the back door closed and put in some air conditioning for the punters then we would all be happy bunnies. (I think). But lets give the new owners a chance - the Area Manager seemed anxious to please and was certainly very approachable and understanding and quick to respond to our initial concerns.
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Can I just say that (given that this thread was started by yours truly) I was drying off in the Dartmouth Arms tonight after being caught in the downpour. I asked the barman if the owners had indeed purchased The Dolphin. He confirmed they had. Now, whilst I may be flamebait (much of my own volition) can I add as a final riposte that I am very pleased with this news. I dread to read the reaction to some of my more inflammatory posts but can I add the following.
I only have good to say about Sydenham, where it is going, where it's been and what it has to offer. I feel so safe, welcomed and listened to. I may (nay, do) come across as the most intolerable/odious snob ever but that is not intended. I am from a background that is less than working class - indeed had we had jobs then we would have been pleased. I'm just a sucker for the views at the top of the hill - hence the move (I guess that's what an Environmental Biology degree does for you?)
I bid fairwell to the forum only with the regret that whilst I was never intentionally disparaging toward others other than in defence, many found me an overbearing snob.
Apologies in retrospect to Julwz and GLOBAL THINKER.
I only have good to say about Sydenham, where it is going, where it's been and what it has to offer. I feel so safe, welcomed and listened to. I may (nay, do) come across as the most intolerable/odious snob ever but that is not intended. I am from a background that is less than working class - indeed had we had jobs then we would have been pleased. I'm just a sucker for the views at the top of the hill - hence the move (I guess that's what an Environmental Biology degree does for you?)
I bid fairwell to the forum only with the regret that whilst I was never intentionally disparaging toward others other than in defence, many found me an overbearing snob.
Apologies in retrospect to Julwz and GLOBAL THINKER.
Last edited by Greg Whitehead on 14 Sep 2006 07:35, edited 6 times in total.
Just wanted to correct my final paragraph - I meant sound proofing, as well as triple glazing especially in the back of the pub. I think legal requirements on an environmental level demand that in a residential area, you should not be able to hear the music from a certain distance outside. However I am no expert on the subject - just married to one!
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
I'd be interested to get the views of others on the news regarding the owners of the Dartmouth Arms buying the Dolphin and turning it into a gastropub. It seems this has been a strong and often inflammatory thread but surely this is good news and a very real start? (coupled with nasaroc's news of the significant residential and retail building due to happen on the high street). Nasaroc posted within this thread that Sydenham "ain't ever gonna be Richmond upon Thames" - well yes, we don't have jumbo jets flying 10 feet above our head every 30 seconds as with anywhere in west London, for a start. I think Sydenham is really for the turn.
Let's be honest it has beautiful views, is incredibly leafy and open with some fabulous architecture and streets aswell as being brilliantly connected (indeed some friends of mine who moved from ED recently agree that ED is almost criminally poorly connected and Sydenham to town is a comfortable breeze - no pun intended with these air-conditioned trains).
Looks like we're maybe starting to get what we want. Am I alone in thinking that architecture-wise Sydenham high-street is not a million-miles removed from Northcote Road (yes, I know, very, very much without the shops that are in Clapham).
I'm currently moving from Knighton Park Road to Sydenham Hill and am beginning to think that alot of the 'action' is going to take place where I'm leaving ! I might've backed the wrong horse ? It's not too long a walk down the hill mind.
Excited of Sydenham
Am I the only one who's excited ??
Let's be honest it has beautiful views, is incredibly leafy and open with some fabulous architecture and streets aswell as being brilliantly connected (indeed some friends of mine who moved from ED recently agree that ED is almost criminally poorly connected and Sydenham to town is a comfortable breeze - no pun intended with these air-conditioned trains).
Looks like we're maybe starting to get what we want. Am I alone in thinking that architecture-wise Sydenham high-street is not a million-miles removed from Northcote Road (yes, I know, very, very much without the shops that are in Clapham).
I'm currently moving from Knighton Park Road to Sydenham Hill and am beginning to think that alot of the 'action' is going to take place where I'm leaving ! I might've backed the wrong horse ? It's not too long a walk down the hill mind.
Excited of Sydenham
Am I the only one who's excited ??
Last edited by Greg Whitehead on 22 Sep 2006 13:15, edited 3 times in total.
No, not the only one at all Greg. Having just moved to Sydenham, I've been having a great old time exploring the surrounding areas and whilst it's great having CP and East Dulwich so close by, I want to put my beer money (or at least some of it!) into my local area. At the moment I have little or no option to, simple as that.
Went to Lordship Lane for the first time with my partner last weekend and we were very impressed with the pubs, restaurants (albeit a bit pricey compared to CP!) and shops. But the area itself, the residental roads etc aren't a patch on Sydenham and it's true, the commute options are very limited.
Sydenham is such a diverse area, but the pubs don't reflect that, and a significant percentage of people I see on the way to/from work are not being catered, if you'll excuse the pun, for in Sydenham, so they are spending their hard earned in the surrounding areas.
Let's hope the transition period for the Dolphin is short and smooth and that it proves successful so that others are encouraged to invest in the area also and that things are about to turn for the better.
Went to Lordship Lane for the first time with my partner last weekend and we were very impressed with the pubs, restaurants (albeit a bit pricey compared to CP!) and shops. But the area itself, the residental roads etc aren't a patch on Sydenham and it's true, the commute options are very limited.
Sydenham is such a diverse area, but the pubs don't reflect that, and a significant percentage of people I see on the way to/from work are not being catered, if you'll excuse the pun, for in Sydenham, so they are spending their hard earned in the surrounding areas.
Let's hope the transition period for the Dolphin is short and smooth and that it proves successful so that others are encouraged to invest in the area also and that things are about to turn for the better.
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annabel mclaren
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 19:55
- Location: thorpes
At the risk of sounding like someone with a drink problem, I'm very excited about the the Dartmouth Arms rumour, and have got all fingers very firmly crossed! Apart from anything else, Michael, who owns the DA, has a terrific CV - he was involved in the first branch of Livebait and also the Old Fire Station in Waterloo. Foodwise at the Dolphin he plans to do something similar to the Dulwich Woodhouse, and also intends to make use of the garden.
Like Greg, I'm tremendously enthused by Sydenham's architecture - which is why I've spent about 20 years on the Sydenham Society's conservation committee! It took at least a decade to get the Thorpes designated as a conservation area, but we got there in the end, and the current Sydenham Gateway initiative was also kick-started by the Syd Soc. If we can get improvements to the station, some 'greening' of the high street and new paving then the environment will have been tremendously improved.
I do think south-west London is great, and the commons in particular are tremendous, but having grown up there and gone to school there (Clapham / Balham) I would say that there are tremendous advantages here - the views etc plus significantly less traffic. I don't want to dive into the Overground/Underground debate, but the speed and comfort of our connections are infinitely superior to the Northern Line!
Like Greg, I'm tremendously enthused by Sydenham's architecture - which is why I've spent about 20 years on the Sydenham Society's conservation committee! It took at least a decade to get the Thorpes designated as a conservation area, but we got there in the end, and the current Sydenham Gateway initiative was also kick-started by the Syd Soc. If we can get improvements to the station, some 'greening' of the high street and new paving then the environment will have been tremendously improved.
I do think south-west London is great, and the commons in particular are tremendous, but having grown up there and gone to school there (Clapham / Balham) I would say that there are tremendous advantages here - the views etc plus significantly less traffic. I don't want to dive into the Overground/Underground debate, but the speed and comfort of our connections are infinitely superior to the Northern Line!
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Thanks for your replies randomv and Annabel.
I must admit I went in the Dolphin for a quick drink on Sunday just gone, purely so I could make a before and after comparison (hadn't been in for a few years). It'll be quite a smart building when it's refurbed (well it ought to be) I believe and there's a decent sized garden. The women behind the bar seemed really great (Lee?) but I must admit I think it'll be for the better when it's given a good scrub-up and snob-up.
Pray tell Annabel - I hope the menu isn't being dumbed down. I want the same menu as the DA. Can you clarify what you mean by the same as the DWH? I generally don't eat there. Surely all gastropubs menus follow a simliar theme?
On the point of the commons and what have you I think one things for sure. I could never live in the concrete, polluted, over-crowded, noisy, rude, traffic-ridden and over-priced jungle that is 'north of the river' (here he goes again
) I do like ED and Clapham et al (why wouldn't I?) I do believe though that with the right investment Sydenham could be better, indeed infinitely superior to both...but then I am biased, I guess.
Finally the Sydenham Society Annabel, Katherine and I have just posted our applications. The street I'm moving to (don't wnat to jinx it by declaring it) is part of a conservation area also. I'm trying to pressgang Falkor into joining also - come on Giles - you know it's money well spent!
I must admit I went in the Dolphin for a quick drink on Sunday just gone, purely so I could make a before and after comparison (hadn't been in for a few years). It'll be quite a smart building when it's refurbed (well it ought to be) I believe and there's a decent sized garden. The women behind the bar seemed really great (Lee?) but I must admit I think it'll be for the better when it's given a good scrub-up and snob-up.
Pray tell Annabel - I hope the menu isn't being dumbed down. I want the same menu as the DA. Can you clarify what you mean by the same as the DWH? I generally don't eat there. Surely all gastropubs menus follow a simliar theme?
On the point of the commons and what have you I think one things for sure. I could never live in the concrete, polluted, over-crowded, noisy, rude, traffic-ridden and over-priced jungle that is 'north of the river' (here he goes again
) I do like ED and Clapham et al (why wouldn't I?) I do believe though that with the right investment Sydenham could be better, indeed infinitely superior to both...but then I am biased, I guess. Finally the Sydenham Society Annabel, Katherine and I have just posted our applications. The street I'm moving to (don't wnat to jinx it by declaring it) is part of a conservation area also. I'm trying to pressgang Falkor into joining also - come on Giles - you know it's money well spent!
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annabel mclaren
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 19:55
- Location: thorpes
Greg - re the menus... I don't think the food will be worse, as Michael would not be associated with anything that was not first-class (he doesn't do anything that isn't brilliant!) but its more to do with how you order (possibly at the bar rather than table service) and that the prices (particularly at lunchtime) may be a bit less than the DA. Probably it would be best to pop into the DA and talk to him!
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Greg Whitehead
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- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
I'll do just that, thanks Annabel. You're right - it wouldn't be worth the investment to do a 'vanilla' version of the DA. I'll await the opening of the Dolphin with eager anticipation.
Ordering from the bar isn't a biggie either given that perhaps London's finest gastropub (Endurance in Soho) which just so happens to be my local at work, along with the John Snow, operates exactly that system.
I hope to see you all there! Even if I'm unfortunately not going to be local to the Dolphin when it opens but I'll doubtless be making the trip down from Sydenham Hill often and with a big smile on my face! I still think the Golden Lion could be a real humdinger of a gastropub. And maybe if the Dolphin's the success it really, really should be then the Golden Lion will follow in quick succession then The Greyhound etc, etc.
Ordering from the bar isn't a biggie either given that perhaps London's finest gastropub (Endurance in Soho) which just so happens to be my local at work, along with the John Snow, operates exactly that system.
I hope to see you all there! Even if I'm unfortunately not going to be local to the Dolphin when it opens but I'll doubtless be making the trip down from Sydenham Hill often and with a big smile on my face! I still think the Golden Lion could be a real humdinger of a gastropub. And maybe if the Dolphin's the success it really, really should be then the Golden Lion will follow in quick succession then The Greyhound etc, etc.
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Greg Whitehead
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- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Just to be clear I wasn't saying the John Snow is a good gastropub. It is my local boozer as I work on Broadwick Street and a very good pub but stay away from the food.
The Endurance is a very, very good gastropub and I used to go into it when it was a very, very bad pub for the Berwick Street market crowd. So if they can make that a roaring success then the Dolphin should be 'knock-out'
The Endurance is a very, very good gastropub and I used to go into it when it was a very, very bad pub for the Berwick Street market crowd. So if they can make that a roaring success then the Dolphin should be 'knock-out'
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Addtional to my recent two posts, a good number of you have PM'd stating your disbelief and mild anger that The Dolphin will be a 'poor man's DA'. I must say I just cannot see it. Just think about...
The Thorpes, Knighton Park Road, Trewsbury Road et al contain housing that is at a pricepoint comparable, nay higher, than that of the equivalent in Forest Hill. This is before we even think about some of the roads and housing leading from Kirkdale and Westwood Hill (please don't misunderstand, I'm equally a fan of FH as I am of Syd, just making a point) In short there's more than a latent demand for a gastropbub in Syd.
On that basis I'm sure the owners appereciate that we all have finely-honed tastes but we just avoid the majority of local eateries like the plague and go out elsewhere (many of the PM's have been from like-minded Sydenhamites who eat out at all the top places in C.London). Can we really see the Dolphin serving up 'chicken in an basket'? I'm sure what Annabel meant is that the lunch menu will be cheaper to create demand. Most of the Dolphin's target audience works in 'town' and lunchtimes might be quieter without drumming up trade. Also, quite rightly, if there's no table service that will be reflected in it's prices.
This is all very normal to me (the DA's plans to charge less at lunch and because there won't be at-table ordering). As long as the decor and evening menu is on a par with the DA then there isn't really a problem.
Remember, how many of us on this forum regularly go to the DA... Have no fear, the owners of the DA will be WELL AWARE that the majority of it's patrons come from SE26 and there's plenty more of us who don't currently go to the DA who'll become regulars of The Dolphin.
Have faith. After all, if the Dolphin's pitched wrongly we'll just keep on going elsewhere! I'm highly confident that won't happen (and no, I'm not saying veto it before it opens, I'm saying the owners will get it right - why wouldn't they?)
The Thorpes, Knighton Park Road, Trewsbury Road et al contain housing that is at a pricepoint comparable, nay higher, than that of the equivalent in Forest Hill. This is before we even think about some of the roads and housing leading from Kirkdale and Westwood Hill (please don't misunderstand, I'm equally a fan of FH as I am of Syd, just making a point) In short there's more than a latent demand for a gastropbub in Syd.
On that basis I'm sure the owners appereciate that we all have finely-honed tastes but we just avoid the majority of local eateries like the plague and go out elsewhere (many of the PM's have been from like-minded Sydenhamites who eat out at all the top places in C.London). Can we really see the Dolphin serving up 'chicken in an basket'? I'm sure what Annabel meant is that the lunch menu will be cheaper to create demand. Most of the Dolphin's target audience works in 'town' and lunchtimes might be quieter without drumming up trade. Also, quite rightly, if there's no table service that will be reflected in it's prices.
This is all very normal to me (the DA's plans to charge less at lunch and because there won't be at-table ordering). As long as the decor and evening menu is on a par with the DA then there isn't really a problem.
Remember, how many of us on this forum regularly go to the DA... Have no fear, the owners of the DA will be WELL AWARE that the majority of it's patrons come from SE26 and there's plenty more of us who don't currently go to the DA who'll become regulars of The Dolphin.
Have faith. After all, if the Dolphin's pitched wrongly we'll just keep on going elsewhere! I'm highly confident that won't happen (and no, I'm not saying veto it before it opens, I'm saying the owners will get it right - why wouldn't they?)
Last edited by Greg Whitehead on 5 Oct 2006 10:19, edited 3 times in total.
I'm as confident as Greg that the new Dolphin will be different but every bit as good as the DA.
Buy why get "mildly angry" as Greg suggests you are. If anyone posting to this site wants to be involved at an early stage in looking at projects such as the Dolphin, new shop proposals or road and transport plans why not join the Sydenham Society and get involved with one of its committees? Or at least attend the Sydenham Regeneration Forum (next meeting 7th December 7pm Naborhood Centre). It's much better than existing on titbits of information from this site and then getting annoyed and angry that you can't influence events.
The truth of the matter is that the Sydenham Society has known about the new Dolphin for at least six months and are now able to look at more detailed plans for the new venture thanks to cooperation between the owner and the Society. From reading the threads on the forum we clearly have a huge number of Sydenham-committed people who should be getting involved in this way. If you want to make a real contribution to the future of Sydenham, this is the way to do it.
Sorry if I sound like an army recruitment officer but this is something I really believe in.
Incidentally, many people in Forest Hill are also getting the same idea. Tonight is the inaugural AGM of the Forest Hill Society - a spin-off from the Sydenham Society (7.30pm Friend's Meeting House Sunderland Road). I understand that over 150 people have already paid to join the new Society despite the fact that it has only been in existence for a few months.
Why don't you do the same?
Buy why get "mildly angry" as Greg suggests you are. If anyone posting to this site wants to be involved at an early stage in looking at projects such as the Dolphin, new shop proposals or road and transport plans why not join the Sydenham Society and get involved with one of its committees? Or at least attend the Sydenham Regeneration Forum (next meeting 7th December 7pm Naborhood Centre). It's much better than existing on titbits of information from this site and then getting annoyed and angry that you can't influence events.
The truth of the matter is that the Sydenham Society has known about the new Dolphin for at least six months and are now able to look at more detailed plans for the new venture thanks to cooperation between the owner and the Society. From reading the threads on the forum we clearly have a huge number of Sydenham-committed people who should be getting involved in this way. If you want to make a real contribution to the future of Sydenham, this is the way to do it.
Sorry if I sound like an army recruitment officer but this is something I really believe in.
Incidentally, many people in Forest Hill are also getting the same idea. Tonight is the inaugural AGM of the Forest Hill Society - a spin-off from the Sydenham Society (7.30pm Friend's Meeting House Sunderland Road). I understand that over 150 people have already paid to join the new Society despite the fact that it has only been in existence for a few months.
Why don't you do the same?
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
The new menu seems to be more than acceptable for us in regards the Dolphin?
How exciting for a middle-class pub (is that a misnomer?) to finally be a reality and satisfy the latent and ever-growing demand all over SE26. I guess the scaffolding wil go up this Monday and then it's all systems go?
If they can stick to the early December re-opening of the Dolphin then Christmas will indeed have come early to Syd.
How exciting for a middle-class pub (is that a misnomer?) to finally be a reality and satisfy the latent and ever-growing demand all over SE26. I guess the scaffolding wil go up this Monday and then it's all systems go?
If they can stick to the early December re-opening of the Dolphin then Christmas will indeed have come early to Syd.
Last edited by Greg Whitehead on 14 Oct 2006 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
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still_robbo
- Posts: 46
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- Location: Newlands Park