I just spent a marvellous few minutes reading this thread, and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Footloose hits the nail squarely on the head in his last but one post.
What I wonder though, is whether it is possible to change from one class to another ? That is, be born working class, and then become middle class, or even, (horror of horrors) be born middle, and become working class. You then get the prefixes, like 'upper' middle class and 'lower' middle class. All a load of blocks if you ask me.
I was born in what I consider to be a working class family. Now, I have a good income, a nice house, two cars blah blah blah. I even send my little boy to a private school..
I still consider myself to be working class.
I was going to start a new thread for this, as I do find it really interesting to hear peoples views on it. Maybe someone can do so - I still have a point to make about local pubs.
I've said it before, and I will say it again - It's not where you're from - it's where you're at.
Anyhow, at some point someone will undoubtedly open a upmarket pub in Sydenham. It might take a couple of years, but it will happen.
In the meantime, for those who want to drink in more salubrious surroundings, East Dulwich is your best bet. Personally, I preferred it when it was more like Sydenham (about 6 or so years ago) but then, again, that's just me.
Dulwich Wood House also gets my vote, as does The Dartmouth Arms and Q Bar in Forest Hill. Again, I used to drink in The Dartmouth, when it was a scabby old boozer - and I quite liked it then too.
The weird thing about The Greyhound, is that it actually used to be a really good pub (okay, that was 20 years ago) and then it was slowly ruined. It had a beautiful traditional 'London' bar, with a 'Lounge' on one side, and a 'vault' on the other. It even had two toilets, which were reasonably clean. They had bands on in the big back room ( I saw John Otway there) and they would even show big boxing matches on a big telly.
Then the Firkin Brewery (or whoever had bought it out by then) got hold of it, and the rest is history. Shocking.
By the way, has anyone been down to the big pub on the roundabout at Gypsy Hill ? The one that looks like the house off The Addams Family - i think its called The Mansion.
Maybe Admin could copy this post, and start a new thread with it - I really would like to know other peoples views (even yours Greg) on the class issue.
Could be a bumpy ride though.
Middle Class Pubs
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the sexton
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 3 Sep 2006 20:22
- Location: sydenham
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
@ Raymondus - Quite so. Well done, you inferred correctly.
@ Nork1 - You have me all wrong. Whilst the words Adelaide and Penge would clearly have no resonance with me I'm open to trying the place. Truth be told a few weeks ago I followed a very good 'guided tour' of Penge that I downloaded from the internet. It went from the police station up to the top end of Sydenham Hill Park on Thicket Road and described all the hidden gems that are there (such as the White House et al). If you'd cared to read my post it would be clear that my problem isn't with the pubs that exist, more the lack of choice at the top end.
So, I'm a snob and I'm unrepentant in my views. I don't ask anyone to agree with them but I'm entitled to air them on an open forum such as this. Ditto to you The Sexton if you don't like the language of the header then perhaps it's best not to post.
I find all your views valid and hope mine come across correctly. I find the housing stock and views of Sydenham really engaging. There's many fine houses and streets in the area, it's brilliantly connected and given that London is one vast flood plain I feel safe being up here on the ridge. It just frustrates when every new shop is a £1 shop. And it's nothing to to with the dynamics of the population. Doesn't it send out the right signals when the Cake Store and Gurkha's and the Organic Shop etc, etc are doing so well and the thrift stores are closing down?...even when you look above the shops on the high street I think of how nice it could be as the buildings are very attractive.
I'm all for positive action and will wholeheartedly support any 'improvement' and agree that the discussion needs to be mature. I do object, however, to nomarks such as Megan and Pippa coming on giving their "The Sun" views on things when they're not a Sydenham resident (come on old things, admit it, you don't live in Forest Hill do you? You live in the much poorer fag-end of it which is Honor Oak? which Forest Hill is desperately trying to disown) What on earth brings you to the Sydenham Town Forum? The clue is in the header stupid girls. If you'd paid attention at school rather than 'bunking off' you'd realise you are looking for a forum that deals with SE4 - Honor Oak is really just Brockley overspill which is really just New Cross by another name. I think you'll find this is more suited to your types needs.
http://www.newcrossonline.co.uk/
@ Nork1 - You have me all wrong. Whilst the words Adelaide and Penge would clearly have no resonance with me I'm open to trying the place. Truth be told a few weeks ago I followed a very good 'guided tour' of Penge that I downloaded from the internet. It went from the police station up to the top end of Sydenham Hill Park on Thicket Road and described all the hidden gems that are there (such as the White House et al). If you'd cared to read my post it would be clear that my problem isn't with the pubs that exist, more the lack of choice at the top end.
So, I'm a snob and I'm unrepentant in my views. I don't ask anyone to agree with them but I'm entitled to air them on an open forum such as this. Ditto to you The Sexton if you don't like the language of the header then perhaps it's best not to post.
I find all your views valid and hope mine come across correctly. I find the housing stock and views of Sydenham really engaging. There's many fine houses and streets in the area, it's brilliantly connected and given that London is one vast flood plain I feel safe being up here on the ridge. It just frustrates when every new shop is a £1 shop. And it's nothing to to with the dynamics of the population. Doesn't it send out the right signals when the Cake Store and Gurkha's and the Organic Shop etc, etc are doing so well and the thrift stores are closing down?...even when you look above the shops on the high street I think of how nice it could be as the buildings are very attractive.
I'm all for positive action and will wholeheartedly support any 'improvement' and agree that the discussion needs to be mature. I do object, however, to nomarks such as Megan and Pippa coming on giving their "The Sun" views on things when they're not a Sydenham resident (come on old things, admit it, you don't live in Forest Hill do you? You live in the much poorer fag-end of it which is Honor Oak? which Forest Hill is desperately trying to disown) What on earth brings you to the Sydenham Town Forum? The clue is in the header stupid girls. If you'd paid attention at school rather than 'bunking off' you'd realise you are looking for a forum that deals with SE4 - Honor Oak is really just Brockley overspill which is really just New Cross by another name. I think you'll find this is more suited to your types needs.
http://www.newcrossonline.co.uk/
Last edited by Greg Whitehead on 4 Sep 2006 13:24, edited 1 time in total.
and there we have it....
It is clear there is a concensus. There is need of places for people who prefer not to be deafed or gassed by the toxic fumes from cigarettes and other noxious devices (whose names we dare not mention) and who prefer not to soil their clothes on the furniture.
I reckon a piano bar would be a nice addition. The Golden Lion should be cleaned up and reverted to its original function... a music hall. i.e. lives shows and a good atmosphere. I am sure this pub, with a decent management, could fulfil both of these roles and also provide an entirely quiet lounge bar. It is hard to understand how such a substantial property, so well situated, with adjacent free car parks for lotsa cars can be run as such a dismal uninviting (and presumably loss-making) place.
It is clear there is a concensus. There is need of places for people who prefer not to be deafed or gassed by the toxic fumes from cigarettes and other noxious devices (whose names we dare not mention) and who prefer not to soil their clothes on the furniture.
I reckon a piano bar would be a nice addition. The Golden Lion should be cleaned up and reverted to its original function... a music hall. i.e. lives shows and a good atmosphere. I am sure this pub, with a decent management, could fulfil both of these roles and also provide an entirely quiet lounge bar. It is hard to understand how such a substantial property, so well situated, with adjacent free car parks for lotsa cars can be run as such a dismal uninviting (and presumably loss-making) place.
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
I like the Golden Lion. It's a lovely building, if not really my taste in decor - although it's rare to look at a pub carpet with aything other than wonderment anywhere in the UK. I'm told The Greyhound actually has a part of it that is listed? Through an entrance that isn't used any longer? Presumably that's the area Fishcox refers to in his recent post. So that'd make a great Gastropub. I've had many a decent night in both these pubs.
I've not been in in the pub on the corner of Kirkdale and Wells Park Road - it looks like a nice building also - quite substantial. Is that a good boozer? I walk past it everyday but shamefully have never been in - Fox & Hounds it's called?
Maybe I could post the night I'm going to try it out and Megan and Pippa can get the bus over from New Cross and bludgeon me to death with their copies of 'Take A Break'?
I've not been in in the pub on the corner of Kirkdale and Wells Park Road - it looks like a nice building also - quite substantial. Is that a good boozer? I walk past it everyday but shamefully have never been in - Fox & Hounds it's called?
Maybe I could post the night I'm going to try it out and Megan and Pippa can get the bus over from New Cross and bludgeon me to death with their copies of 'Take A Break'?
hello greg!
the bit in the greyhound thats listed is actually quite a small entrance hall with if i remember rightly an atrium ceiling[or maybe its just a really light area?]it is impressive though, original tiled floors etc.
re the fox and hounds,id give it a miss if i were you!
if you dont like the greyhound,i dont think you'd be overly impressed with the fox either!
but maybe you should give it a try and judge for yourself,my dad said it was always a strange pub[whatever that means!]
more of a traditional south london pub,maybe a night that you feel like slumming it you could pop in?!
leaf
the bit in the greyhound thats listed is actually quite a small entrance hall with if i remember rightly an atrium ceiling[or maybe its just a really light area?]it is impressive though, original tiled floors etc.
re the fox and hounds,id give it a miss if i were you!
if you dont like the greyhound,i dont think you'd be overly impressed with the fox either!
but maybe you should give it a try and judge for yourself,my dad said it was always a strange pub[whatever that means!]
more of a traditional south london pub,maybe a night that you feel like slumming it you could pop in?!
leaf
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
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- Location: SE26 5RL
Thanks Leaf. I may just try it. I'm not so down on the Greyhound as much of late. I actually spent a New Year in there the one year and had a good time - it really went downhill in the period after.
Can someone explain to me what a South London boozer is? I notice somone else referred to it's smell on another post...
I'm assuming this smell is different to that of a West London boozer or a North or East one. Clearly the boozers in other parts of London don't smell of beer and cigarettes - only here in South London.
Or am I being a facetious idiot as usual.
Back to the point I'm going to give the pub a whirl.
Can someone explain to me what a South London boozer is? I notice somone else referred to it's smell on another post...
I'm assuming this smell is different to that of a West London boozer or a North or East one. Clearly the boozers in other parts of London don't smell of beer and cigarettes - only here in South London.
Or am I being a facetious idiot as usual.
Back to the point I'm going to give the pub a whirl.
greg
re south london pubs;
i would say that the smell of any typical london pub would be much the same[actually most pubs regardless of location];
fag smoke
beer soaked carpet
the smell of man [either unwashed workman type smell or over applied after shave type smell]
i have been in a few pubs years ago as a child [with family of course!]in the east end where i had family and they smelt much the same!
stinky places all round id say.
re south london pubs;
i would say that the smell of any typical london pub would be much the same[actually most pubs regardless of location];
fag smoke
beer soaked carpet
the smell of man [either unwashed workman type smell or over applied after shave type smell]
i have been in a few pubs years ago as a child [with family of course!]in the east end where i had family and they smelt much the same!
stinky places all round id say.
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the sexton
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 3 Sep 2006 20:22
- Location: sydenham
Think Greg got the wrong end of the stick - perhaps he's been getting too much stick on the forum. I'm about as middle class as they come. My point being that what we were really talking about was the non-presence of a clean, friendly, ok up-market, venue in Sydenham. I was pointing out that as soon as one mentions class (and religion for that matter) the battle-lines are drawn and discussion goes out the window. Is all.
I'm afraid that wine bars have creamed off the top-end market in the same way that supermarkets have taken the chart business away from record shops.
I'm afraid that wine bars have creamed off the top-end market in the same way that supermarkets have taken the chart business away from record shops.
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Sorry if I did get the wrong end of the stick with your post The Sexton.
On the point of getting stick on the forum it's all water of a duck's back. I enjoy the 'witty rhetoric' of the great unwashed from New Cross such as Megan and Pippa. It's only words after all. Maybe if they sent Phil/Dave round to " 'ave a word " it'd be a little less enjoyable.
On the point of getting stick on the forum it's all water of a duck's back. I enjoy the 'witty rhetoric' of the great unwashed from New Cross such as Megan and Pippa. It's only words after all. Maybe if they sent Phil/Dave round to " 'ave a word " it'd be a little less enjoyable.
I think that class is a state of mind. I consider myself to be middle class despite the fact I didn't go to public school and don't earn anywhere near 100k. However I did get picked on in school for being 'posh' so maybe that was due to my mum having been to boarding school and bringing me up proper. I also consider my husband to be middle class, yet his mum was a cleaner and his dad a labourer and alas, he doesn't earn 100k either. We both work in media though.
'Chavs' are not working class people, they are a class of their own - for instance look at Prince Harry and his girlfriend Chelsy - chavs the both of them.
Now onto the relevant bit. I used to live in East Dulwich and can almost agree with fishcox that it was a bit nicer 6 years or so ago, mainly because I like proper old men's boozer type of pubs, rather than trendy bars, however being a bit of a snob as well I quite like a bit of both and to have the choice. The thing is that its the trendy bars that are used as a measuring tool of and 'up and coming' area and attract other posho type businesses. As for Sydenham - I think the Dulwich Woodhouse is great because it has a mixture of people in it for one thing. The proximity of the Woodhouse was another reason why I moved to my new place up here in the dizzy heights of upper syd. Its the mid-sydenhamites I feel sorry for - someone really needs to sort it out and open a wine bar or make a proper go of an existing pub. I would do it myself if I had the cash - I reckon a fortune could be made. And I said the same about an organic butchers shop in East Dulwich a couple of years before lo and behold someone opened one.
'Chavs' are not working class people, they are a class of their own - for instance look at Prince Harry and his girlfriend Chelsy - chavs the both of them.
Now onto the relevant bit. I used to live in East Dulwich and can almost agree with fishcox that it was a bit nicer 6 years or so ago, mainly because I like proper old men's boozer type of pubs, rather than trendy bars, however being a bit of a snob as well I quite like a bit of both and to have the choice. The thing is that its the trendy bars that are used as a measuring tool of and 'up and coming' area and attract other posho type businesses. As for Sydenham - I think the Dulwich Woodhouse is great because it has a mixture of people in it for one thing. The proximity of the Woodhouse was another reason why I moved to my new place up here in the dizzy heights of upper syd. Its the mid-sydenhamites I feel sorry for - someone really needs to sort it out and open a wine bar or make a proper go of an existing pub. I would do it myself if I had the cash - I reckon a fortune could be made. And I said the same about an organic butchers shop in East Dulwich a couple of years before lo and behold someone opened one.
I have it on good authority that The Dolphin has been bought by the same people who own and run The Dartmouth Arms.
Very positive news for Sydenham methinks, although I remember when The Dartmouth first opened, it went through 'the transitional period'. I have a feeling that The Dolphin may take a bit longer.
If it does happen, the we should remember we all have a responsibility to make it a success, which obviously means eating and drinking as much as we can.
Very positive news for Sydenham methinks, although I remember when The Dartmouth first opened, it went through 'the transitional period'. I have a feeling that The Dolphin may take a bit longer.
If it does happen, the we should remember we all have a responsibility to make it a success, which obviously means eating and drinking as much as we can.
wow!
good news about the dolphin eh greg?
maybe your wishes have been granted,time will tell and as fishcox says it is up to all you 'posh' lot to make sure it is a success
re the greyhound,dont be too disheartened annie,my mum and my brother couldnt be more different in lots of aspects,maybe this young man and his mother are the same?
i would say give him a chance.
i am prepared to eat my words should i be wrong!
good news about the dolphin eh greg?
maybe your wishes have been granted,time will tell and as fishcox says it is up to all you 'posh' lot to make sure it is a success
re the greyhound,dont be too disheartened annie,my mum and my brother couldnt be more different in lots of aspects,maybe this young man and his mother are the same?
i would say give him a chance.
i am prepared to eat my words should i be wrong!
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
It is good news Leaf, yes. I like your 'tongue in cheekness'
So what is being said here? I'm not sure I understand. It has been bought to turn into a gastropub? I was heading to the Meze place over the weekend and categorically did not like what I saw or heard from that pub. When I was in it last I think it's a nice building and could be a real gem when you consider the properties on Tewkesbury Road/Knighton Park/the Thorpes et al are right within it's catchment.
If they're buying it to run as the current 'haunt' with it's car-showroom intact (there's about 3 cars for sale right now outside) then...
So what is being said here? I'm not sure I understand. It has been bought to turn into a gastropub? I was heading to the Meze place over the weekend and categorically did not like what I saw or heard from that pub. When I was in it last I think it's a nice building and could be a real gem when you consider the properties on Tewkesbury Road/Knighton Park/the Thorpes et al are right within it's catchment.
If they're buying it to run as the current 'haunt' with it's car-showroom intact (there's about 3 cars for sale right now outside) then...
drinking further
Any thoughts on drinking venues further down into Penge. I'm relocating there from East Dulwich ( Strange how everybody seems to have come from East Dulwich on this thread ).
I was brought up down in beckenham/Elmers end when I was young, so kindof know the area well. Tried the Queen Adelaide - which was a proper boozer - a little intimidating after ED but i'd go back in for an after work beer, and the Bridge House Tavern which again was a little intimidating but seemed fine.
I've been drinking in the gowlett in ED recently and it seems to have a great mix of proper boozer - with mix of old and new clientel, plus it does great real ales (I think its a CAMRA pub ). I'm hoping that somewhere like that exist in Syd/Penge and I haven't found it yet.
On a side note after my recent experience with buying in the area, the Estate agents have really been selling Sydenham and Penge, as desirable areas to buy for the 'I can't afford East Dulwich' late twenties/ thirties market. I know of at least 5 other people who are all moving there soon. Has it felt like lots of new people have been moving in recently???
btw...
Yep I work in the media...sorry!
I was brought up down in beckenham/Elmers end when I was young, so kindof know the area well. Tried the Queen Adelaide - which was a proper boozer - a little intimidating after ED but i'd go back in for an after work beer, and the Bridge House Tavern which again was a little intimidating but seemed fine.
I've been drinking in the gowlett in ED recently and it seems to have a great mix of proper boozer - with mix of old and new clientel, plus it does great real ales (I think its a CAMRA pub ). I'm hoping that somewhere like that exist in Syd/Penge and I haven't found it yet.
On a side note after my recent experience with buying in the area, the Estate agents have really been selling Sydenham and Penge, as desirable areas to buy for the 'I can't afford East Dulwich' late twenties/ thirties market. I know of at least 5 other people who are all moving there soon. Has it felt like lots of new people have been moving in recently???
btw...
Yep I work in the media...sorry!
I think the Queen Adelaide used to be owned by Alan Minter.
Used to go the The Bridge Tavern a lot, but then it took a real nosedive. Tried most of the other pubs in Penge, and, if anything, they make the pubs in Sydenham look good.
Best bet is jump in a cab/onto the 227, and head into Beckenham - the bars near Beckenham Junction are alright.
Used to go the The Bridge Tavern a lot, but then it took a real nosedive. Tried most of the other pubs in Penge, and, if anything, they make the pubs in Sydenham look good.
Best bet is jump in a cab/onto the 227, and head into Beckenham - the bars near Beckenham Junction are alright.
In response to Annie's query about the Greyhound - I can confirm that, having spoken to the new Area Manager just the other day, the son of the former Manager is being given a go at managing the Greyhound now.
I can report the rubbish in the rear garden is in the process of being cleared - it is now all in an overflowing skip. The kitchen I can confirm looks like it has been given a good clean up. However I think this is more to the credit of the new Area Manager than the resident Manager. She assures me that they take their responsibilities seriously and do appear to be anxious to please the local neighbours. Having addressed some of our concerns, lets just say we will see what happens over time.
Incidentally, the new pub management company also own the Fox & Hounds on the corner of Wells Park Road - anyone know what that is like?
I can report the rubbish in the rear garden is in the process of being cleared - it is now all in an overflowing skip. The kitchen I can confirm looks like it has been given a good clean up. However I think this is more to the credit of the new Area Manager than the resident Manager. She assures me that they take their responsibilities seriously and do appear to be anxious to please the local neighbours. Having addressed some of our concerns, lets just say we will see what happens over time.
Incidentally, the new pub management company also own the Fox & Hounds on the corner of Wells Park Road - anyone know what that is like?
fishcox,
that news about the dolphin has made my year. i love the dartmouth almost as much as i loath the dolphin in its current state. i'm amazed they're able to get away with that god-awful bbay-waking racket they call a karaoke night in a residential area...
any idea when the takeover might happen? i need my peaceful sunday evenings back...
that news about the dolphin has made my year. i love the dartmouth almost as much as i loath the dolphin in its current state. i'm amazed they're able to get away with that god-awful bbay-waking racket they call a karaoke night in a residential area...
any idea when the takeover might happen? i need my peaceful sunday evenings back...