I’m afraid that we have uncovered a further piece of bad news for local rail users.
From May 2010, Southern intend to cut evening rush hour services from LB from 6 trains per hour to 4tph. Southern will look at the situation again in December 2010 (when they have a delivery of extra carriages) to see if they can reinstate an extra 2tph – but this is likely to be on only one of the evening rush hours – not on all three rush hours. Evening rush hours are from 5pm to 8pm.
Can I remind you of the essential meeting on Future Rail Services
to be held at the Naborhood Centre 17th September at 7.30pm. Speakers from both TfL and Southern will talk about future train timetables and answer questions
Evening rush hour trains from LB cut by one third in 2010
Re: Evening rush hour trains from LB cut by one third in 201
Keep this up and I might just as well start commuting from Anerley againnasaroc wrote:I’m afraid that we have uncovered a further piece of bad news for local rail users.
From May 2010, Southern intend to cut evening rush hour services from LB from 6 trains per hour to 4tph. Southern will look at the situation again in December 2010 (when they have a delivery of extra carriages) to see if they can reinstate an extra 2tph – but this is likely to be on only one of the evening rush hours – not on all three rush hours. Evening rush hours are from 5pm to 8pm.
. Oh - forgot - I don't have to anymore.TfL estimate (and this coincides with polls carried out by the Sydenham and FH Societies) that 30% of existing passengers will choose to travel on the new ELL. That still leaves 70% of passengers still travelling on the existing service to LB - so it's vital that we don't allow the LB service to be downgraded in any serious way.
Ten days ago, I contacted Jim Dowd asking on behalf of the FH and Sydenham Societies to have a meeting with him to discuss these cuts. I am still awaiting a reply to my request.
Ten days ago, I contacted Jim Dowd asking on behalf of the FH and Sydenham Societies to have a meeting with him to discuss these cuts. I am still awaiting a reply to my request.
Just confirms my fears from years ago when the proposal was confirmed. How else were they going to manage the extra trains on the East London Line, doh!
More of us need to link with London Bridge not Shoreditch etc! I think we need far fewer trains on the ELL route. Isn't it just common sense that more people are going to need to get to central London and west London, than north-east???!!!!
Can we contact any other areas likely to be affected who can get behind a fight to keep current frequency to London Bridge, all day, ie. Brockley forum, who might be affected in the same way?
More of us need to link with London Bridge not Shoreditch etc! I think we need far fewer trains on the ELL route. Isn't it just common sense that more people are going to need to get to central London and west London, than north-east???!!!!
Can we contact any other areas likely to be affected who can get behind a fight to keep current frequency to London Bridge, all day, ie. Brockley forum, who might be affected in the same way?
I think the new London Overground is great
Will get people to Canary Wharf much quicker than the current JLL switch at London Bridge - going west on JLL from canada water will also be an option (will be quicker than the foot transfer at LB) options for DLR and District line connections will be available as well as future crossrail
The quoted TFL estimates of 30/70% split is unfounded as they have no data to make this sort of call - no one does
The new line creates many more options when traveling from sydenham - chill out and let the new service settle in before you jump on the bandwagon
any one would think that London Bridge was the centre of the universe according to people who live in sydenham
Will get people to Canary Wharf much quicker than the current JLL switch at London Bridge - going west on JLL from canada water will also be an option (will be quicker than the foot transfer at LB) options for DLR and District line connections will be available as well as future crossrail
The quoted TFL estimates of 30/70% split is unfounded as they have no data to make this sort of call - no one does
The new line creates many more options when traveling from sydenham - chill out and let the new service settle in before you jump on the bandwagon
any one would think that London Bridge was the centre of the universe according to people who live in sydenham
The 70/30 split is a very transparent and easy piece of data to uncover.
You question passengers currently using local rail services about their exact travel destination (with a post code if possible). In the case of most commuters it's the same location each day. Then you work out (using geographical route and transport mapping which takes into account bus and walking times) which would be the quickest and most convenient line to use - the ELR or taking the train to LB. All this research has already been done I assure you, and it shows a broad 70/30 split. The FH Society carried out a similar survey and came up with the same results which were presented to a public meeting about two years ago.
I'd acknowledge that the ELR is a very useful route. But it will never be a quicker or more direct route to LB and the West End and will still remain the first choice of the majority of local travellers.
It isn't correct to say as Poppy does that the arrival of the ELL has made it impossible to accommodate enough LB trains on the same track as the ELL. During the morning rush hour, 14 trains will run on the line in each direction - 8 ELL trains and 6 LB trains. It would be perfectly possible to run 14 trains per hour, every hour of the day and night if you wanted to.
You question passengers currently using local rail services about their exact travel destination (with a post code if possible). In the case of most commuters it's the same location each day. Then you work out (using geographical route and transport mapping which takes into account bus and walking times) which would be the quickest and most convenient line to use - the ELR or taking the train to LB. All this research has already been done I assure you, and it shows a broad 70/30 split. The FH Society carried out a similar survey and came up with the same results which were presented to a public meeting about two years ago.
I'd acknowledge that the ELR is a very useful route. But it will never be a quicker or more direct route to LB and the West End and will still remain the first choice of the majority of local travellers.
It isn't correct to say as Poppy does that the arrival of the ELL has made it impossible to accommodate enough LB trains on the same track as the ELL. During the morning rush hour, 14 trains will run on the line in each direction - 8 ELL trains and 6 LB trains. It would be perfectly possible to run 14 trains per hour, every hour of the day and night if you wanted to.
This is an exremely important issue to residents of FH and Sydenham. As a commuter i often experience extreme congestion problems in the evening on the trains from LB to FH. A cut in services will only make the problem worse.
I would suggest commuters attend the meeting (posted by nasaroc) to put forward their views. Retrospective alterations to train timetables will be extremely difficult/near impossible.
I would suggest commuters attend the meeting (posted by nasaroc) to put forward their views. Retrospective alterations to train timetables will be extremely difficult/near impossible.
This really is terrible news!
It's a big reduction in convenience - at the moment with six trains an hour in rush hour it's easy enough to operate on a "turn up and travel" basis, knowing that you will generally have no more than 10 minutes to wait for a train.
Reducing it down to 4 trains per hour means the wait could be 15 minutes or longer (for example - the four trains per hour outside the evening peak aren't evenly distributed, so it's easy to end up with a 20 min wait for a train.
And also the trains in the evening rush hour are more congested than in the mornings - presumably because the rush is condensed into a shorter time period. With four trains per hour the capacity will be reduced much more than the level of demand for the service will fall due to ELL.
If some loss of services is inevitable, I think it's important to fight for:
-6 trains per hour in the 6-7pm period
-a commitment to 8 car trains on all services.
I would come to the meeting on the 17th but I'm on holiday - hope those that can make it are successful in arguing a case.
It's a big reduction in convenience - at the moment with six trains an hour in rush hour it's easy enough to operate on a "turn up and travel" basis, knowing that you will generally have no more than 10 minutes to wait for a train.
Reducing it down to 4 trains per hour means the wait could be 15 minutes or longer (for example - the four trains per hour outside the evening peak aren't evenly distributed, so it's easy to end up with a 20 min wait for a train.
And also the trains in the evening rush hour are more congested than in the mornings - presumably because the rush is condensed into a shorter time period. With four trains per hour the capacity will be reduced much more than the level of demand for the service will fall due to ELL.
If some loss of services is inevitable, I think it's important to fight for:
-6 trains per hour in the 6-7pm period
-a commitment to 8 car trains on all services.
I would come to the meeting on the 17th but I'm on holiday - hope those that can make it are successful in arguing a case.
I've talked to Michael Stringer.
I think you make some good points Weeble.
A quick glance at the current timetable shows what effect these proposed cuts in the early evening timetable from LB will mean. Between 4pm and 8pm, Southern currently provide 23 Sydenham-bound trains from LB.
Their aim is to cut these to 16
That is a huge chunk out of the main evening rush hour services.
I think you make some good points Weeble.
A quick glance at the current timetable shows what effect these proposed cuts in the early evening timetable from LB will mean. Between 4pm and 8pm, Southern currently provide 23 Sydenham-bound trains from LB.
Their aim is to cut these to 16
That is a huge chunk out of the main evening rush hour services.
generally I agree...but if, for whatever reason, 14 trains an hour in unfeasible then surely we should campaign for a reduction of the number of LO trains (to 6 or 4 an hour) and the maintenance of 6 trains an hour for LB?Weeble wrote: If some loss of services is inevitable, I think it's important to fight for:
-6 trains per hour in the 6-7pm period
-a commitment to 8 car trains on all services.
14 trains per hour isn't unfeasible.
14 trains (8 ELL and 6 LB trains) are going to run in each direction during the morning rush hours from May and there is no technical or signalling reason why this couldn't continue 24 hours per day if necessary.
Indeed the line could handle quite a bit more than 14 tph.
At the last public transport meeting Peter Field of TfL told the audience that at least 18 trains per hour (a mix of ELL and LB trains) could be accommodated on this line. And up until a few months ago TfL were serious thinking of running an extra two ELL trains per hour to and from Crystal Palace in each direction as a part of the regular LO service - that would have meant a total of 16 trains during the morning rush hours.
Let's not get diverted. There's no technical or signalling reason why we can't run at least 6 tph to and from LB and well as the existing ELL trains.
Incidentally, Weeble I believe that we already have a Southern commitment to no "short" trains from May 2010 i.e. all LB and Victoria trains will be 8 carriages long. Why not come along to the meeting on the 17th and confirm this with the two people from Southern?
14 trains (8 ELL and 6 LB trains) are going to run in each direction during the morning rush hours from May and there is no technical or signalling reason why this couldn't continue 24 hours per day if necessary.
Indeed the line could handle quite a bit more than 14 tph.
At the last public transport meeting Peter Field of TfL told the audience that at least 18 trains per hour (a mix of ELL and LB trains) could be accommodated on this line. And up until a few months ago TfL were serious thinking of running an extra two ELL trains per hour to and from Crystal Palace in each direction as a part of the regular LO service - that would have meant a total of 16 trains during the morning rush hours.
Let's not get diverted. There's no technical or signalling reason why we can't run at least 6 tph to and from LB and well as the existing ELL trains.
Incidentally, Weeble I believe that we already have a Southern commitment to no "short" trains from May 2010 i.e. all LB and Victoria trains will be 8 carriages long. Why not come along to the meeting on the 17th and confirm this with the two people from Southern?
Please Nasaroc, you seem to have a lot of knowledge and contacts regarding this can you support no cuts to the current non-peak service?
I think people have gradually been realising what a great train service we have (both off-peak and peak) and have been moving here. It is really important for the area, I think, in terms of sustainable regeneration etc.
Do you know how long the journey from Sydenham to Canada Water will take and the transfer to the Jubilee Line, and then how long those two extra stops on Jubilee Line will take?
I think people have gradually been realising what a great train service we have (both off-peak and peak) and have been moving here. It is really important for the area, I think, in terms of sustainable regeneration etc.
Do you know how long the journey from Sydenham to Canada Water will take and the transfer to the Jubilee Line, and then how long those two extra stops on Jubilee Line will take?
Poppy - Correct me if I am wrong - but what you want to know is how long the journey to London Bridge will take once the ELL is running compared with the current journey on Southern.
The journey time from Sydenham to London Bridge by Southern trains is 16 minutes.
This is exactly the same time as it will take to get from Sydenham to Canada Water on the ELL. The leg from Canada Water to London Bridge on the Jubilee Line adds another 5 minutes, giving a total journey time of around 21 minutes. However, you still have to allow time to change from ELL to Jubilee Line at Canada Water - say 4 minutes - plus another 3 minutes to walk up from the depths of the Jubilee Line at LB.
So the ELL route to LB will be about 12 minutes longer than existing Southern train times.
Now I'm totally willing to accept that this is a rough calculation but it still stands true. The ELL route to LB is an alternative - but it won't be chosen by anyone wanting to save time or avoid hassle, that's for sure. Much of the journey time via Canada Water will be used changing trains and climbing stairs. And then, especially in the rush hours, there's the overcrowded Jubilee Line to cope with. And the change at CW is now very quick but it's much less likely to be so once ELL trains arrive.
I am confident that a solid campaign is currently forming aided by groups in FH, Honor Oak Park and New Cross to oppose the proposed cuts to our services and will be given added momentum by the meeting on the 17th.
The journey time from Sydenham to London Bridge by Southern trains is 16 minutes.
This is exactly the same time as it will take to get from Sydenham to Canada Water on the ELL. The leg from Canada Water to London Bridge on the Jubilee Line adds another 5 minutes, giving a total journey time of around 21 minutes. However, you still have to allow time to change from ELL to Jubilee Line at Canada Water - say 4 minutes - plus another 3 minutes to walk up from the depths of the Jubilee Line at LB.
So the ELL route to LB will be about 12 minutes longer than existing Southern train times.
Now I'm totally willing to accept that this is a rough calculation but it still stands true. The ELL route to LB is an alternative - but it won't be chosen by anyone wanting to save time or avoid hassle, that's for sure. Much of the journey time via Canada Water will be used changing trains and climbing stairs. And then, especially in the rush hours, there's the overcrowded Jubilee Line to cope with. And the change at CW is now very quick but it's much less likely to be so once ELL trains arrive.
I am confident that a solid campaign is currently forming aided by groups in FH, Honor Oak Park and New Cross to oppose the proposed cuts to our services and will be given added momentum by the meeting on the 17th.
With respect, I don't think so.
If you want to join the Jubilee Line, then I would concede completely that your best way to travel is via the ELL and change at Canada Water, not to go to direct to LB and then take the long and usually crowded walk through LB station. Apart from anything else, the entrance to the JL at LB is often closed intermittently during morning rush hours due to crowding.
My concern is for the 70% of locals who will still find the direct LB line their quickest and most efficient route - for example, those who work at or around LB, the southern half of The City or who need to travel onwards to Charing Cross because they work in Soho, Covent Garden etc. For these people - and they constitute 70% of travellers - the direct LB/CX route must keep all of its existing services.
If you want to join the Jubilee Line, then I would concede completely that your best way to travel is via the ELL and change at Canada Water, not to go to direct to LB and then take the long and usually crowded walk through LB station. Apart from anything else, the entrance to the JL at LB is often closed intermittently during morning rush hours due to crowding.
My concern is for the 70% of locals who will still find the direct LB line their quickest and most efficient route - for example, those who work at or around LB, the southern half of The City or who need to travel onwards to Charing Cross because they work in Soho, Covent Garden etc. For these people - and they constitute 70% of travellers - the direct LB/CX route must keep all of its existing services.
This is not good, it's bad enough with the direct Charing X trains about to go 
So is this simply a cost cutting exercise or to do with them loosing a platform for building work at London Bridge? It doesn't make any sense to cut services when they are getting so packed, I've seen 3/4 near punch ups by the time it gets to Brockley in the mornings. If they aren't running at capacity at peak they should be
So is this simply a cost cutting exercise or to do with them loosing a platform for building work at London Bridge? It doesn't make any sense to cut services when they are getting so packed, I've seen 3/4 near punch ups by the time it gets to Brockley in the mornings. If they aren't running at capacity at peak they should be