Incessant Chatter...

ALIB · Post by **ALIB** » 1 Feb 2009 07:49

i intervene if needed. I make a conscious decision about the person(s) I approach, taking into account whether i am acting reasonably and how likely is it for me to get physically attacked.
I m getting to the age and stature where i won't intervene for too much longer.
The other consideration is that if i approach a 'child/yoof' about their behaviour and a physical altercation ensues, what are the likely outcomes?
1. I beat a child up who then sues me, blah blah blah.
2. I get knifed by someone under the age of criminal responsibility.

I think this is termed a LOSE/LOSE situation.

Ali B

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 1 Feb 2009 08:34

So sad our society has got like this. Never perfect but 40 or so years ago I honestly believe these sort of criminal incidents were far less frequent.
Do not have an answer but believe time for drastic rememedies to be seriously considered.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 1 Feb 2009 12:49

The fact of the matter is that we can't have a police officer on every street corner and on every bus and train. (and I don't think people would want that) It is the duty of every citizen to intervene and challenge bad behaviour - that intervention could just be a case of ringing the police or telling authority, rather than playing rambo - but until people do this, and are preared to do this, then nothing is going to change for the better and moaning about it on an internet forum or in the media isn't going to change it.

As I said, most people will be compliant, those that aren't are getting nicked. As for being accused of "beating up" a child - so long as your actions are reasonable then you have nothing to fear from the courts. You have the right to use reasonable force to defend yourself (cf. Common law - R vs. Beckford specifically) and you have the right to use reasonable force to prevent crime and in the lawful apprehension of criminals (s.3 Criminal Law Act 1967)

nork1 · Post by **nork1** » 1 Feb 2009 14:06

bensonby wrote:It is the duty of every citizen to intervene and challenge bad behaviour - that intervention could just be a case of ringing the police or telling authority, rather than playing rambo - but until people do this, and are preared to do this, then nothing is going to change for the better and moaning about it on an internet forum or in the media isn't going to change it.

Meanwhile back on planet Earth. I WAS prepared to intervene and I didn't 'play Rambo' as you put it. Look where it got me. Do you SERIOUSLY think the police are going to do anything about a fare evader or someone shoving me in the back? Do you SERIOUSLY think those being a pain in the arse are going to wait around to be given a stern telling off by a PCSO? Do you SERIOUSLY think it'd make any difference if they did? This isn't the 50's - a clip round the ear and a ticking off from Mr.Plod on a bike doesn't happen now.

You carry on telling naughty people off on the bus mate, quoting byelaws at them and wagging your finger. You'll be in hospital within days.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 1 Feb 2009 14:18

nork1 wrote:Do you SERIOUSLY think the police are going to do anything about a fare evader or someone shoving me in the back?

yes, because I've seen it done.

Do you SERIOUSLY think those being a pain in the arse are going to wait around to be given a stern telling off by a PCSO? Do you SERIOUSLY think it'd make any difference if they did?

if someone does something violent then they are not going to be ticked off, they are going to be nicked.

You carry on telling naughty people off on the bus mate, quoting byelaws at them and wagging your finger. You'll be in hospital within days.

Funnily enough I've not been put in hospital. And I don't suggest wading in all the time - calling the police is a method of intervening. One doesn't need to "quote byelaws" at people....one should just have the confidence to know that the byelaws (or other laws) on your side - and that you can act within them.

What's the alternative? Living in fear and letting people walk all over you? No thanks.

bozax · Post by **bozax** » 2 Feb 2009 01:39

OK ,my posts have stuck up for the unjust(i feel) stop and search actions by BTP.This is not to say that those acting like assholes shouldn't be arrested/brought to task.
I can and will cheerfully engage in a full bloodied fight if it comes to it!
BUT why should i have to?
it's nearly always kids.
1.Learn to queue at bus stops/trains
2. don't aggravate your elders (yes, and betters.because we are.{sod off all those people who think kids have rights;teach them respect.})
3. it is not acceptable to be loud on public transport, be it shouting,playing music,chatting on mobiles.
here's an idea email/write to any school when you think their pupils have no idea how to behave!I'm on it already, join in, perhaps things may change for the better!!!!!!
find a school here
http://www.schoolswebdirectory.co.uk/postcode.php
this is what i have sent so far
Dear Head,
Is it not possible that you teach your pupils respect for others?
this would include
How to queue at bus stops
how it is unacceptable to shout on buses/trains
also it is not acceptable to play your music out loud on a mobile phone/mp3 player?
I am submitting this to other schools in the area ,so don't feel you are being targeted unjustly!
if you feel I am wrong and your pupils do not do these things. please contact me and I will be only too willing to send you video evidence( from my mobile phone)
please note up until today I have not recorded any such but will do if behaviour does not improve(sadly I have to make this disclaimer in case someone thinks I am videoing children/girls for some nefarious reason)

Nickerbockers · Post by **Nickerbockers** » 3 Feb 2009 08:16

This 'intervention' we're all sposed to put in when we come across gangs of youths acting unruly... is this across the board?? Does it go for pregnant women and elderly people alike?? I personally would never EVER intervene - I admit I'm scared of these little hooligans, half the time they're high, armed, evil or all three! I'm not risking getting stabbed or shot - it's not society's place to risk life and limb telling them to behave - as if they'd listen anyway - it's ultimately down to the parents to take better care of their kids, and know where they are 24/7! After that, it's down to the Police.

I'm not a have-a-go-hero, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to be either...

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 3 Feb 2009 18:49

Nickerbockers wrote:This 'intervention' we're all sposed to put in when we come across gangs of youths acting unruly... is this across the board?? Does it go for pregnant women and elderly people alike?? I personally would never EVER intervene - I admit I'm scared of these little hooligans, half the time they're high, armed, evil or all three! I'm not risking getting stabbed or shot - it's not society's place to risk life and limb telling them to behave - as if they'd listen anyway - it's ultimately down to the parents to take better care of their kids, and know where they are 24/7! After that, it's down to the Police.

I'm not a have-a-go-hero, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to be either...

noone is asking anyone to risk life and limb. But on the other hand the job to keeping law and order in society is not just that of the police. Could you possibly have a police officer on every corner? Would you want one?

However, one also has a duty not to be a moral coward.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 3 Feb 2009 18:54

bozax wrote:OK ,my posts have stuck up for the unjust(i feel) stop and search actions by BTP.

but you haven't actually satisfactorially explained why they are unjust...

(yes, and betters.because we are.{sod off all those people who think kids have rights;teach them respect.})

oh yeah, human rights, how terrible....

I read once in the Daily Mail that they are bad somehow

3. it is not acceptable to be loud on public transport, be it shouting,playing music,chatting on mobiles.

yes it is, sometimes...... I'd like someone to shout if the bus was on fire!

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 4 Feb 2009 00:57

bozax wrote: here's an idea email/write to any school when you think their pupils have no idea how to behave!I'm on it already, join in, perhaps things may change for the better!!!!!!
find a school here
http://www.schoolswebdirectory.co.uk/postcode.php

It's a good idea, bozax. Something similar happened in Portsmouth a few years back where bus passengers were fed up with rowdy school kids on their way back from school. The Headteacher received a few complaints and as these kids were still in uniform it was reflected badly on the school. Before they knew it, form teachers and assemblies were warning kids to behave and teachers even stood at bus stops and used the buses to keep an eye on things/see who the troublemakers were. It seemed to work down there.

As for confronting anyone on the buses/trains up here, I don't think I'll bother unless I'm wearing some protective clothing like our friendly plod. Of course, I may change my stance on this if the authorities effectively clean the streets of the knife-carrying scum...

bozax · Post by **bozax** » 5 Feb 2009 01:14

oh yeah, human rights, how terrible.... I read once in the Daily Mail that they are bad somehow

Little brats grow up to be big brats unless someone teaches them how to behave.This is not done by letting them have their own way all the time . Human rights have sod all to do with it.I'm not advocating stringing them up for pete's sake. But until they are punished??? in some Way they will continue acting the same way.

yes it is, sometimes...... I'd like someone to shout if the bus was on fire!

now thats just facetious, you know it's not what i meant. You obviously have little experience commuting on the upper deck of a bus, when Gangs of teens deliberately shout/play their mobiles too loud.
Please video it and post the results next time you confront a teen gang on the 22:30 432 Brixton to Anerley. but i suspect it might take a day or two to get the camera extracted from your posterior.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 5 Feb 2009 08:14

Well said Bozaz.
I am sure these members who keep on about human rights etc and poor little jimmy do not travel by public transport.

I shall never forgive our previous Scottish PM for passing that leglislation

Annie · Post by **Annie** » 28 Feb 2009 16:06

Eagle wrote:Well said Bozaz.
I am sure these members who keep on about human rights etc and poor little jimmy do not travel by public transport.

I shall never forgive our previous Scottish PM for passing that leglislation

In Scotland they wouldnt put up with the yobs as we do, the yobs would be coming to terms with "The Glasgow kiss" they had just been given.
I'm fed up with all the so called do-gooders, Sort the yobs out and we can all have a better life.
In schools, even primary schools the kids have no "re-spect" for their elders, and i don't mean children should be seen and not heard!But some parents have a lot to answer for.
Some years ago i could see what was coming, as i have worked in schools for the last 20 years it has been easy to see the Yoof! element mature into the local yob culture.It starts when they are very young you can almost pick out their futures, very sad very sad indeed,
We as a society are not doing these children any favours, a Nigerian friend said he will be sending his children home to be educated as we are far to soft here, I think he is right.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 28 Feb 2009 18:03

Yes , what you sow you shall reap.
I am sure In Scotland behaviour not as bad ( just refering to our previous Scotish PM) , who despite being born in Scotland , has Scottish name , Scottish father and went to Scottish school, for some resaon claimed to be English.

Other Euro Nations ignore the confounded human rights act , they just laugh at us.

Annie · Post by **Annie** » 28 Feb 2009 18:47

I have had problems with yobs on the bus several times,once was when an elderly couple were getting off at their stop only to be bombarded with coke cans and empty packets of food the yobs had finished with,The crime the elderly couple had committed? None at all, so i told the yobs off and got a load of foul mouthed abuse and stuff thrown at me,so i shoved the crisp packets down the front shirt of the "leader"only to be told all about its human rights. in the end an old man shoved the yob and shouted at him to sit down and bloody well stay there! good for him i say.
in the mean time the driver did sod all.this was a 356 by the way.
so, what do you think of that mums and dads? you who allow your brats to dominate the buses now they have free travel? which by the way we all pay for. They don't give a damn what little johnny gets up to--as long as they dont have them under their feet all day.Sad world when the elderly no longer have the freedom to enjoy their old age without the s**t of society ruining it for them.
Now come back to me do-gooders.

Nickerbockers · Post by **Nickerbockers** » 2 Mar 2009 10:40

bensonby wrote:noone is asking anyone to risk life and limb. But on the other hand the job to keeping law and order in society is not just that of the police. Could you possibly have a police officer on every corner? Would you want one?

However, one also has a duty not to be a moral coward.

A moral coward?? What exactly is that? A person who doesn't want to get shot or stabbed? A person who perhaps has small children and doesn't want to leave them motherless or fatherless?? All people have a duty to do is live their life the way that is best for them as long as it is not hurting other people! I honestly can't believe you think we have a DUTY to stand up to these thugs! You're taking all the emphasis away from the fact they THEY have a duty to keep to themselves and stop causing physical and mental pain to innocent people. And their PARENTS have a 'duty' to bring them up so that they woudl not even think to act that way at all!

Us? The innocent public? We have no 'duty' where disruptive youths are concerned, none at all!!!

Nickerbockers · Post by **Nickerbockers** » 2 Mar 2009 10:43

Annie wrote:
I have had problems with yobs on the bus several times,once was when an elderly couple were getting off at their stop only to be bombarded with coke cans and empty packets of food the yobs had finished with,The crime the elderly couple had committed? None at all, so i told the yobs off and got a load of foul mouthed abuse and stuff thrown at me,so i shoved the crisp packets down the front shirt of the "leader"only to be told all about its human rights. in the end an old man shoved the yob and shouted at him to sit down and bloody well stay there! good for him i say.
in the mean time the driver did sod all.this was a 356 by the way.
so, what do you think of that mums and dads? you who allow your brats to dominate the buses now they have free travel? which by the way we all pay for. They don't give a damn what little johnny gets up to--as long as they dont have them under their feet all day.Sad world when the elderly no longer have the freedom to enjoy their old age without the s**t of society ruining it for them.
Now come back to me do-gooders.

Sorry about this horrible experience Annie. I've just moved to a flat on the 356 route, and I thought it was quite a villagey feel, all older people and seemed to know each other (well at my end of the journey anyway), but I'll be on my gaurd now! I totally agree, and if I could be contraversial for a second, people shouldn't have kids if they plan to shove them out of the door as soon as they hit 8 or 9. You're right, they don't give a damn.

Annie · Post by **Annie** » 2 Mar 2009 15:35

Knickerbocker,
I think the 356 is a brilliant bus service, and you are right it normally has a no hassle feeling to it.
but three times i have travelled on it and had trouble with yobs,
it seems to be weekends and holidays, thats why i am all for taking away the pass they use that I pay for!
and making its use for term time only.I have lived around here for over 30 years but i am getting to the point where I am determined I will not be here in this area when I reach retirement.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 2 Mar 2009 19:49

I agree take free passes away. I will never forgive Livingstone for this.
As when I was young can have free ticket for school if over 3 miles

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » 3 Mar 2009 08:58

The Behaviour Code already exists and this allows for free travel to be taken away from misbehaving youths. Perhaps the problem is in enforcing these powers?
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1063.aspx

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