michael,
thanks, but my problem is that on one hand you seem to be saying "there should not be a building here because of xyz"
and then on the other hand you were saying 'but if there is a building here it should not look like x'
You can't have it both ways, surely it just undermines your argument to start talking about the style of a house you don't want.
Conservation Area/4 Redberry Grove
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Many of us think that there should not be a building of any description (not even a scruffy garage) on that particular site. From the summary of their comments it is clear that the merits or otherwise of the proposed building were irrelevant to many of those objecting to the plans.
At the risk of repetition, the proposed building will extend along much of one edge of the Millennium Green, and will be clearly visible from the green. That, for many who use the green, is not acceptable.
At the risk of repetition, the proposed building will extend along much of one edge of the Millennium Green, and will be clearly visible from the green. That, for many who use the green, is not acceptable.
Last edited by Steve Grindlay on 24 Jan 2009 17:38, edited 1 time in total.
Juwlz,
I do not say there should not be a building in this location (although the flood risk should be taken into account when a house is built on a site that probably partially absorbs an underground stream). But my main concern is that if there is a building here I believe it needs to fit better with the surrounding houses.
Alib,
If you haven't been to Albion Villas, Albion Millennium Green, or Redberry Grove I strongly recommend a visit before deciding how worthy of conservation this area is or is not, and how well the design will fit in. You may still be of the opinion that it makes a positive contribution, I can respect that view even if I disagree with it. It is the context of this development that should have been considered.
I do not say there should not be a building in this location (although the flood risk should be taken into account when a house is built on a site that probably partially absorbs an underground stream). But my main concern is that if there is a building here I believe it needs to fit better with the surrounding houses.
Alib,
If you haven't been to Albion Villas, Albion Millennium Green, or Redberry Grove I strongly recommend a visit before deciding how worthy of conservation this area is or is not, and how well the design will fit in. You may still be of the opinion that it makes a positive contribution, I can respect that view even if I disagree with it. It is the context of this development that should have been considered.
Michael, let me clarify. I have been to all of the above roads and surrounds very recently, but did not look at the area in the context of this new proposal.
My vocation is as moderator between the environment and developers, in order to obtain an appropriate balance for any proposal. (I am a consultant)
I have seen only the photographs on STF incorporating the new design, but I will follow your advice and visit the area tomorrow. This time observing with the new development/proposal in mind.
I will report back my (amended) views.
This looks like a hot topic. I would ask everyone who has an opinion to contribute, whatever their stance.
Ali B
My vocation is as moderator between the environment and developers, in order to obtain an appropriate balance for any proposal. (I am a consultant)
I have seen only the photographs on STF incorporating the new design, but I will follow your advice and visit the area tomorrow. This time observing with the new development/proposal in mind.
I will report back my (amended) views.
This looks like a hot topic. I would ask everyone who has an opinion to contribute, whatever their stance.
Ali B
Mr. Pedant. (me)
As an overview an environmental audit of flora and fauna would be worthwhile for objectors. Realistically this should be done over a 12 month period. However, in practical terms, this is hardly ever done, due to the necessity to progress a development.
Unfortunately, we are in the clutches of Winter. Threfore, migrating birds will not be present, nor will hibernating mammals and plant growth is going to be severely reduced at this time.
Ground and surface waters are likely to be at thier highest point.
I'll go, I'll look and i'll report back.
Ali B
As an overview an environmental audit of flora and fauna would be worthwhile for objectors. Realistically this should be done over a 12 month period. However, in practical terms, this is hardly ever done, due to the necessity to progress a development.
Unfortunately, we are in the clutches of Winter. Threfore, migrating birds will not be present, nor will hibernating mammals and plant growth is going to be severely reduced at this time.
Ground and surface waters are likely to be at thier highest point.
I'll go, I'll look and i'll report back.
Ali B
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Your mention of an environmental audit, ALIB, reminded me that in 1998-9 the London Ecology Unit conducted such a survey of the Millennium Green. Their results were sumarised in "Nature Conservation in Lewisham" published in 2000.
One interesting comment from the survey was that "in 1995, the well-known entomologist Colin Plant found larvae of the purple hairstreak butterfly on these oaks [on the south east corner of the Millennium Green], the first time it had been found in Lewisham." The report added that "this small brown and purple butterfly spends much of its time flying around the tops of tall oak trees". Although not rare nationally, this is still one of only three such colonies in Lewisham.
Given that there are several important oaks in the garden of 4 Redberry Grove, which is adjacent to the oaks where these butterflies were found, it is possible that they might also survive there although, if the development goes ahead, it might not be for much longer.
There has also been a detailed Arboreal Implication Assessment of the trees in the garden of 4 Redberry Grove which can be found here and here
One interesting comment from the survey was that "in 1995, the well-known entomologist Colin Plant found larvae of the purple hairstreak butterfly on these oaks [on the south east corner of the Millennium Green], the first time it had been found in Lewisham." The report added that "this small brown and purple butterfly spends much of its time flying around the tops of tall oak trees". Although not rare nationally, this is still one of only three such colonies in Lewisham.
Given that there are several important oaks in the garden of 4 Redberry Grove, which is adjacent to the oaks where these butterflies were found, it is possible that they might also survive there although, if the development goes ahead, it might not be for much longer.
There has also been a detailed Arboreal Implication Assessment of the trees in the garden of 4 Redberry Grove which can be found here and here
Good point about the oaks Steve. I went to the site this morning, and to be honest my views haven't changed.
One important factor is that in order for this development to proceed, some of the larger trees in No.4's garden will have to come down. This will need to be done to prevent subsidence to the new building. (can i just say that i meant to look at these trees in more detail, but got side-tracked by my dog).
I have more detailed opinions on certain aspects, but will save these for (potential) representation at planning discussions. I am seeking to avoid a fire-fight on the message boards and would rather issues went to an organised planning meeting.
I will, however, still provide information to both sides until this happens.
Ali B
One important factor is that in order for this development to proceed, some of the larger trees in No.4's garden will have to come down. This will need to be done to prevent subsidence to the new building. (can i just say that i meant to look at these trees in more detail, but got side-tracked by my dog).
I have more detailed opinions on certain aspects, but will save these for (potential) representation at planning discussions. I am seeking to avoid a fire-fight on the message boards and would rather issues went to an organised planning meeting.
I will, however, still provide information to both sides until this happens.
Ali B
The planning meeting has happened. The decision has been made. Any issues that objectors had have been ignored. I'm afraid you have missed your opportunity to have any effect on this development which will now go ahead.
The Oaks on the site should be okay. Lower branches will be removed but the trees themselves will remain. The piles used for the building *should* avoid damaging the roots of the trees, but I could be wrong. But I am less concerned about the effect of one or two trees than the conservation area as a whole and the adjacent site of nature conservation in particular.
The Oaks on the site should be okay. Lower branches will be removed but the trees themselves will remain. The piles used for the building *should* avoid damaging the roots of the trees, but I could be wrong. But I am less concerned about the effect of one or two trees than the conservation area as a whole and the adjacent site of nature conservation in particular.
Can you appeal against the decision? If so, how and on what grounds?The planning meeting has happened. The decision has been made. Any issues that objectors had have been ignored. I'm afraid you have missed your opportunity to have any effect on this development which will now go ahead.
The application was submitted last July, so I'm a bit surprised that reading this forum in the last day or two is the first time I've heard of this. Hopefully this forum's fairly new but regular "planning watch" threads should alert more local residents to future applications of similar controversial nature.
Thomas,
Although applicants have a right of appeal, objectors have no such rights in planning law. The only way for objectors to challenge a decision of a planning committee is to seek a judicial review in the high court. This can be a very costly process and is not for the faint hearted.
One of the councillors on the planning committee who made the decision commented on her facebook status: "I can understand residents' frustration, particularly at the lack of any right to appeal for objectors"
Although applicants have a right of appeal, objectors have no such rights in planning law. The only way for objectors to challenge a decision of a planning committee is to seek a judicial review in the high court. This can be a very costly process and is not for the faint hearted.
One of the councillors on the planning committee who made the decision commented on her facebook status: "I can understand residents' frustration, particularly at the lack of any right to appeal for objectors"
planning application
In my opinion what usually makes even a well designed building look out of place or 'low quality' is that developers these days seem to feel compelled (because they can make more money probably) to build right up to the pavement line.
There are tonnes of pretty unremarkable blocks of flats in Beckenham, I am thinking specifically of Coopers Cope Road, on the way to Waitrose, which actually look ok, The reason, I think, for this is that they are well set back from the road, with really good quality and substantial landscaping.
I would recommend you take a look if you are passing next. There are lots of roads like that in that area...
I believe a detailed landscaping plan that developers had to adhere to would make all the difference.
There are tonnes of pretty unremarkable blocks of flats in Beckenham, I am thinking specifically of Coopers Cope Road, on the way to Waitrose, which actually look ok, The reason, I think, for this is that they are well set back from the road, with really good quality and substantial landscaping.
I would recommend you take a look if you are passing next. There are lots of roads like that in that area...
I believe a detailed landscaping plan that developers had to adhere to would make all the difference.
I simply believe that level of preciousness people attach to their particular neck of the woods is totally out of proportion to its actual merits. Even Bath has accepted a very succesful modern design for the new spa in the midst of its Georgian architecture.
As for the Victorian gothic revival, you would have had a hard task convincing a gothic revivalist to build in anything other than their own style and damn the context, as you can see throughout our cities and no-one gets shocked now when a run of Georgian buildings gets interrupted by a Victorian villa.
The Victorians were obsessed with modernity and progress and went through a rapid progression of styles from gothic to Arts and Crafts, art nouveau, art deco and 1920s modernism, developing buildings which in their view provided a better quality of life, planning light, reflecting the materials available. They would have rejected this kind of preciousness as parochial and retrograde.
As for the Victorian gothic revival, you would have had a hard task convincing a gothic revivalist to build in anything other than their own style and damn the context, as you can see throughout our cities and no-one gets shocked now when a run of Georgian buildings gets interrupted by a Victorian villa.
The Victorians were obsessed with modernity and progress and went through a rapid progression of styles from gothic to Arts and Crafts, art nouveau, art deco and 1920s modernism, developing buildings which in their view provided a better quality of life, planning light, reflecting the materials available. They would have rejected this kind of preciousness as parochial and retrograde.
Just seen this advertised, which is now under offer:
http://www.spencerkennedy.co.uk/Propert ... 87468.aspx
"Dulwich borders" eh???
"Ten minutes from all Dulwich schools" - and even closer to all Sydenham schools!
http://www.spencerkennedy.co.uk/Propert ... 87468.aspx
"Dulwich borders" eh???
"Ten minutes from all Dulwich schools" - and even closer to all Sydenham schools!
This is fast becoming a bug bear of mine Thomas. Sorry for going off topic briefly. In the brochure for two homes on Trewsbury Road/Cator Road Hamptons have pitched that "the excellent schools in Dulwich are all within easy reach". The price point for the two homes was 1.3-1.5 Million so I'd imagine fee-paying schools would have been the preference.Thomas wrote:Just seen this advertised, which is now under offer:
http://www.spencerkennedy.co.uk/Propert ... 87468.aspx
"Dulwich borders" eh???
"Ten minutes from all Dulwich schools" - and even closer to all Sydenham schools!
Now, a little research might have more aptly urged the person who wrote up the brochure to pitch Sydenham High (for Girls) as it scored very highly in the recent league tables and of course is close by in Sydenham. Indeed, from memory, Sydenham High bested anything Dulwich and many other places around had to offer? Small point but surely the prospective buyers will send girls to Sydenham High and boys to Dulwich College etc...
Coming back on topic I personally like it. In the same way I like how Six Pillars succesfully integrates itself into it's surroundings on Sydenham Hill. Good architecture can and does always sit comfortably within it's surroundings.
Interesting how Spencer Kennedy use a picture taken on Sydenham Hill to promote the much lower and flatter Dulwich...well I never! I refer to the picture that is on their banner...seems to me to have been taken through the gap in the houses next to the Dulwich Wood House. I could be wrong.
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Wispy Wonder
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 11 Jan 2006 22:13
- Location: Sydenham