My first childhood home was 15 Charleville Circus in Sydenham, where my parents, three brothers and I lived from 1958 until 1966.
As well of many happy memories, I am guardian of a huge family treasure trove of documents, letters and photographs that was handed down to me for safe-keeping. I've been scanning and recording individual items over a number of years and built quite an impressive online digital archive exclusively for present family and future generations. More recently I have been sharing information online with special interest groups such as my Mother's photos and papers from her time in the Royal Navy (Wrens). Hence the reason I've joined this forum to share and learn more about my home town and the unique street where I used to live.
I've settled in beautiful North Yorkshire now so visits to Sydenham & Crystal Palace are rare, but whenever I'm close enough I love to walk past the old house and fondly remember my childhood.
I will soon post photos of the house and garden and tell my family's story – I hope someone finds it interesting and I would be delighted to learn more about the house and the area.
Hopefully a conversation might develop with residents of Charleville Circus past and present.
Steve
I have since added 'Charleville Circus History' discoveries in the most recent posts.
Charleville Circus
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Charleville Circus
Last edited by Charleville on 17 Feb 2024 14:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
First photo posted - 15 Charleville Circus in 1965.
You can just see the ivy starting to creep up the wall – recent photos show the front of the house covered in foliage. My mum's washing can also be glimpsed blowing on the line in the back garden.
You can just see the ivy starting to creep up the wall – recent photos show the front of the house covered in foliage. My mum's washing can also be glimpsed blowing on the line in the back garden.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Another street view of 15 Charleville Circus taken from a different angle.
I believe the house on the left was called 'crossways' is that correct?
I believe the house on the left was called 'crossways' is that correct?
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
I've posted this image on another page of the forum https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 82#p195782
This is a 1963 winter view from one of the upper rear windows of 15 Charleville Circus. The focus is on a mysterious building that is the central topic discussed the other page. Is it possible that this is the only known photograph of this building to exist? Very interesting me thinks!
This is a 1963 winter view from one of the upper rear windows of 15 Charleville Circus. The focus is on a mysterious building that is the central topic discussed the other page. Is it possible that this is the only known photograph of this building to exist? Very interesting me thinks!
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
My parents purchased the entire freehold property of 15 Charleville Circus in March 1958 for £1,725. [That is not a typo – under two grand, pound sterling!] I'm not sure how unusual it was even in those days, but they had a private mortgage with the previous owner. £1,425 borrowed over ten years with a fixed interest rate of 7% per annum the mortgage repayments were just £16/18/2 (£16.91) per month. I have the typed list of precise repayments as a record. So by my calculation my parents managed to deposit £300 approx. 17.5% of the house price.
My father wasn't on a high income working as a painter decorator with LCC (London County Council) and I was the first child born seven months after they moved into the house, so my mother's job and wages soon came to an end. I'm sure part of the master plan when they bought such a large property was to let out the upper two floors. The income from rent would help pay the mortgage and with the costs of raising a family which had expanded to four boys by 1965. My second brother was actually born in the house so he thought it rather amusing to later tell people that he was "born in a circus" which wasn't a lie.
These were happy times for the whole family – truth be told, whilst we always had to live within tight means (everything second-hand or hand-me-downs), we all grew up as a contented family with no great dramas in our lives. It wasn't until I reached mature adulthood I discovered that not everyone was as fortunate to have such a good start, regardless of some that I secretly envied for getting new bikes, better toys and nicer clothes. I have a great deal to be thankful for, having parents who worked so hard, took good care of us and showed us something of the world beyond the four walls. I didn't know then but 'I absolutely get it' now.
I remember wonderful times in Wells Park and Crystal Palace Park not just in the summer but in the buttoned-up coat weather of early spring and late autumn too. We would often venture further afield on family day trips, always by bus or train as my father didn't own a car until many years later. Horniman Museum at Forest Hill, Greenwich and numerous places around London. We were well-prepared and organised explorers. Dad took charge of travel logistics meticulously planned and plotted on folded maps whilst Mum procured and carried the troop's provisions. Flask of tea and/or pre-diluted squash plus an adequate supply of sandwiches encased in the original 'Mothers Pride' bread wrapper. Whilst there was a bench, a brick wall of suitable height or a dry piece of grass to sit, no commercial eatery would profit from our family excursion.
From Charleville Circus during the summer we could sometimes hear the distant drone of motorcycle racing at Crystal Palace but the sound that really galvanised excitement in our household was the chimes of the Mr Whippy ice cream van. This was a treat never to be denied. Armed with the sufficient 'big old penny' coinage for a delicious soft ice cream cone, I would stand in the queue waiting my turn. Feeling the warm air mixed with the 'not unpleasant' diesel fumes that emanated from a grill at the back of the van, I looked wistfully at pictures of 99's that were just beyond our budget. The decadence of a chocolate flake inserted into an ice cream cone at jaunty 'look how sophisticated I am' angle, was something I wouldn't experience until later in my teenage years. Deprived? Impoverished? Bitter? ...Narr!
Another welcomed vendor to our street was the 'Corona' man. No, this was not somebody dispensing viruses but the bringer of sweet liquid refreshment. He would pull up in a big bright yellow flatbed truck ladened with stacks of wooden crates containing wonderful sparkling Corona soft drinks. We passed on lemonade – why would you opt for something so ordinary? when, for the same cost per bottle, choices included Cherryade and Cream Soda. Have you ever consumed the latter with a big dollop vanilla ice cream in the glass?
My second brother and I both attended St. Philip's infants school when we reached the entry age. The walk from home to school is stored in my memory map – crossing busy Westwood Hill, cutting through Wells Park, along Taylors Lane and the short cut through the Church yard. One winter morning when thick London fog was still quite common, I recall my mother grasping my hand tightly whilst we took a leap of faith in the unknown cloud and ran across Westwood Hill during a silent break of traffic.
We lived at Charleville Circus until 1966 and I will post later the lead-up to why and when we moved and even more financial detail of the house sale that is sure to make you weep when compared with todays prices. But remember it's all relative when you consider my Dad's wage in the early days was only nine quid a week.
Where to this fine day in 1964?...
My father wasn't on a high income working as a painter decorator with LCC (London County Council) and I was the first child born seven months after they moved into the house, so my mother's job and wages soon came to an end. I'm sure part of the master plan when they bought such a large property was to let out the upper two floors. The income from rent would help pay the mortgage and with the costs of raising a family which had expanded to four boys by 1965. My second brother was actually born in the house so he thought it rather amusing to later tell people that he was "born in a circus" which wasn't a lie.
These were happy times for the whole family – truth be told, whilst we always had to live within tight means (everything second-hand or hand-me-downs), we all grew up as a contented family with no great dramas in our lives. It wasn't until I reached mature adulthood I discovered that not everyone was as fortunate to have such a good start, regardless of some that I secretly envied for getting new bikes, better toys and nicer clothes. I have a great deal to be thankful for, having parents who worked so hard, took good care of us and showed us something of the world beyond the four walls. I didn't know then but 'I absolutely get it' now.
I remember wonderful times in Wells Park and Crystal Palace Park not just in the summer but in the buttoned-up coat weather of early spring and late autumn too. We would often venture further afield on family day trips, always by bus or train as my father didn't own a car until many years later. Horniman Museum at Forest Hill, Greenwich and numerous places around London. We were well-prepared and organised explorers. Dad took charge of travel logistics meticulously planned and plotted on folded maps whilst Mum procured and carried the troop's provisions. Flask of tea and/or pre-diluted squash plus an adequate supply of sandwiches encased in the original 'Mothers Pride' bread wrapper. Whilst there was a bench, a brick wall of suitable height or a dry piece of grass to sit, no commercial eatery would profit from our family excursion.
From Charleville Circus during the summer we could sometimes hear the distant drone of motorcycle racing at Crystal Palace but the sound that really galvanised excitement in our household was the chimes of the Mr Whippy ice cream van. This was a treat never to be denied. Armed with the sufficient 'big old penny' coinage for a delicious soft ice cream cone, I would stand in the queue waiting my turn. Feeling the warm air mixed with the 'not unpleasant' diesel fumes that emanated from a grill at the back of the van, I looked wistfully at pictures of 99's that were just beyond our budget. The decadence of a chocolate flake inserted into an ice cream cone at jaunty 'look how sophisticated I am' angle, was something I wouldn't experience until later in my teenage years. Deprived? Impoverished? Bitter? ...Narr!
Another welcomed vendor to our street was the 'Corona' man. No, this was not somebody dispensing viruses but the bringer of sweet liquid refreshment. He would pull up in a big bright yellow flatbed truck ladened with stacks of wooden crates containing wonderful sparkling Corona soft drinks. We passed on lemonade – why would you opt for something so ordinary? when, for the same cost per bottle, choices included Cherryade and Cream Soda. Have you ever consumed the latter with a big dollop vanilla ice cream in the glass?
My second brother and I both attended St. Philip's infants school when we reached the entry age. The walk from home to school is stored in my memory map – crossing busy Westwood Hill, cutting through Wells Park, along Taylors Lane and the short cut through the Church yard. One winter morning when thick London fog was still quite common, I recall my mother grasping my hand tightly whilst we took a leap of faith in the unknown cloud and ran across Westwood Hill during a silent break of traffic.
We lived at Charleville Circus until 1966 and I will post later the lead-up to why and when we moved and even more financial detail of the house sale that is sure to make you weep when compared with todays prices. But remember it's all relative when you consider my Dad's wage in the early days was only nine quid a week.
Where to this fine day in 1964?...
Last edited by Charleville on 29 Feb 2024 08:37, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Charleville Circus
That was a fantastic read. Please keep them going.
I was being brought up over a hundred miles away in the 50/60s but so many things chime. We were the lucky ones - no wars, hard working and dedicated parents building a new post-war life. So many of those austere things like sandwiches in bread wrappers, sitting on walls when out and about - we still do though now we don't have to.
Then came the music, short skirts - and we'll I'm sure we will hear more of that time shortly. Thank you again.
Stuart
I was being brought up over a hundred miles away in the 50/60s but so many things chime. We were the lucky ones - no wars, hard working and dedicated parents building a new post-war life. So many of those austere things like sandwiches in bread wrappers, sitting on walls when out and about - we still do though now we don't have to.
Then came the music, short skirts - and we'll I'm sure we will hear more of that time shortly. Thank you again.
Stuart
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement and I will post more stories with photos in the near future.
I agree that we were the lucky generation (in this country at least) ...I often remind people that we have never faced the terror of bombs falling from the sky; nobody has forced us out in a field to shoot other humans and be shot at in return; few of us have experienced real hunger or lack of shelter. In the last few decades, I believe we have been wasteful and haven't cared for the world well enough. The good news is we are learning a lot about using resources wisely and making great progress. I have a lot of faith in the young who are very talented, caring and passionate about the environment and equity of peoples.
Steve
I agree that we were the lucky generation (in this country at least) ...I often remind people that we have never faced the terror of bombs falling from the sky; nobody has forced us out in a field to shoot other humans and be shot at in return; few of us have experienced real hunger or lack of shelter. In the last few decades, I believe we have been wasteful and haven't cared for the world well enough. The good news is we are learning a lot about using resources wisely and making great progress. I have a lot of faith in the young who are very talented, caring and passionate about the environment and equity of peoples.
Steve
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Cold? ... it was ffffffffreezing!
Summers in Sydenham were a wonderful thing in an old Victorian house such as ours. Whilst always a struggle to open due to decades of paint, the old sash windows would allow a pleasing cool breeze to blow through rooms and corridors carrying the gentle sound of rustling leaves and chirpy birdsong.
But come the dark nights of winter the typical home of the early 1960s became a damp and very difficult place to keep even the slightest bit warm. Central heating was a rarity in residential properties and double-glazing was simply unheard of.
Preparations for winter were made in advance, so around September it was the time to buy coal at ‘summer prices’ as prompted by advice of the National Coal Board. There was a great deal of excitement for us kids when the coal man eventually called to 15 Charleville Circus. The coal hole was situated in the middle of the pathway between the steps to the front door and the street pavement. We would go to the lowest level and stand in the doorway to the underground coal storeroom, staring with anticipation at the ceiling. After a short struggle to dislodge and lift the heavy iron lid, suddenly the coal hole was opened and there was a brief glimpse of a circle of sky and a torch-like beam of light descended into the darkened room. Without warning the light was blocked out as the first sack was dropped with a loud thunderous crash upon the ground, followed by a cloud of coal dust that engulfed us gleeful boys. Calm would be restored momentarily, the light beam was now dulled by the dust filled air, whilst the coal man hauled the next hundredweight sack from the truck to repeat the process numerous times. My dad had rigged-up quite a robust contraption not unlike a horizontal hinged door on a central dividing wall. This allowed coal drops to be diverted into left or right-hand piles of different types. I think as a result of London killer smogs of the early 1950s, new types of coal were being introduced before smokeless zones became mandatory. Anthracite was a type of coal I recall my parents often mentioned, and my all time favourite 'Nutty Slack', a most wonderfully descriptive name for a type of coal that I'm sure must have found its way into some comedian’s repertoire in the day.
My birthday was in mid October and my mother always used the occasion as the earliest date any form of heating could be put on. The funny thing is I still maintain the same tradition myself ...she would have been so proud of her little boy!
Our coal fires were generally kept alight throughout the winter in living rooms but not so much in bedrooms, even though open fire places were available. If temporary auxiliary heating was required it was provided in either of two equally dangerous forms. Electric bar heaters – ours featured a pair of red hot elements, only just protected by a chrome plated grill with adult thumb width gaps conveniently placed a toddler level. We even toasted bread on a metal fork with this sinister contraption. If the real risk of electrocution or third degree burns wasn't your bag, the other option was the faithful paraffin heater – yes, every good home should have a tank of flammable liquid with a burning wick to produce a cosy heat source especially in bedrooms. Our home used the brand ‘Pink Paraffin’ but for a few coppers more you could buy the posh stuff they advertised on telly, and for which I can still sing the sign-off jingle "Boom Boom Boom Boom ...Esso Blue!" Now I see it typed I'm not entirely sure 'Boom' was an appropriate word to use when promoting a fuel product that caused 3,004 house fires in 1961. This is the precise number according to a report I just found online. The next line from the same report reads "The statistics do not show how many deaths were caused by these fires, but it seems from sampling that there were rather fewer than 30 in each year". So, not that bad after all! [joking]
Even with this array of heating, move two or three metres from the heat source in the depth of winter and you would plunge into bitterly cold air. The procedure for bedtime started by preparing the bed with eiderdowns and sometimes even heavy overcoats on top, plus one or more hot water bottles under the blankets. The latter was essential for some heat at least. Thick woollen pyjamas, a heavy dressing gown and even multiple pairs of socks where required to transit between rooms via hallway and stairs, walking mostly on freezing cold Lino floors. It was often the case of getting into bed wearing this full ensemble of night time clothing, none of which prevented the initial chattering of teeth and intense body shivering which did eventual subside enough to fall asleep. By morning the bed had become a warm cocoon and it was very difficult to extract one's self from such a cosy snuggery back out into the cold cruel world. Itchy chilblains on my feet and fingers was a common occurrence as a child but it never did me any lasting harm.
I can't finish the inventory of the 'House of horror appliances' without mention of the ultimate safety hazard. People of a certain age will tremble in fear at the mere mention of the 'Ascot Gas Water Heater'. This innocent sounding device was commonly wall mounted in kitchens and bathrooms. The white cylindrical 'rather industrial looking' design featured a hot and cold tap with a long extended chrome outlet pipe that could be swivelled a full 180º left to right. In our bathroom at Charleville Circus 'The Ascot' was positioned between the sink and the bath so that the swivel pipe could reach both. Even though the 'mixer' taps should have controlled output temperature I only remember water being dispensed at ‘artic circle' cold or 'surface-of-the-sun' hot. I'm sure we would partially fill the sink or bath with cold first and then add the scalding hot, steamy water to bring it up to the required temperature.
Although I was too young to remember the ‘great freeze’ of 1962/3 we certainly lived at Charleville Circus during the historic weather event. I do however recall thick ice on the window panes both inside and out – a memory many of my generation tell me that they know well.
Summers in Sydenham were a wonderful thing in an old Victorian house such as ours. Whilst always a struggle to open due to decades of paint, the old sash windows would allow a pleasing cool breeze to blow through rooms and corridors carrying the gentle sound of rustling leaves and chirpy birdsong.
But come the dark nights of winter the typical home of the early 1960s became a damp and very difficult place to keep even the slightest bit warm. Central heating was a rarity in residential properties and double-glazing was simply unheard of.
Preparations for winter were made in advance, so around September it was the time to buy coal at ‘summer prices’ as prompted by advice of the National Coal Board. There was a great deal of excitement for us kids when the coal man eventually called to 15 Charleville Circus. The coal hole was situated in the middle of the pathway between the steps to the front door and the street pavement. We would go to the lowest level and stand in the doorway to the underground coal storeroom, staring with anticipation at the ceiling. After a short struggle to dislodge and lift the heavy iron lid, suddenly the coal hole was opened and there was a brief glimpse of a circle of sky and a torch-like beam of light descended into the darkened room. Without warning the light was blocked out as the first sack was dropped with a loud thunderous crash upon the ground, followed by a cloud of coal dust that engulfed us gleeful boys. Calm would be restored momentarily, the light beam was now dulled by the dust filled air, whilst the coal man hauled the next hundredweight sack from the truck to repeat the process numerous times. My dad had rigged-up quite a robust contraption not unlike a horizontal hinged door on a central dividing wall. This allowed coal drops to be diverted into left or right-hand piles of different types. I think as a result of London killer smogs of the early 1950s, new types of coal were being introduced before smokeless zones became mandatory. Anthracite was a type of coal I recall my parents often mentioned, and my all time favourite 'Nutty Slack', a most wonderfully descriptive name for a type of coal that I'm sure must have found its way into some comedian’s repertoire in the day.
My birthday was in mid October and my mother always used the occasion as the earliest date any form of heating could be put on. The funny thing is I still maintain the same tradition myself ...she would have been so proud of her little boy!
Our coal fires were generally kept alight throughout the winter in living rooms but not so much in bedrooms, even though open fire places were available. If temporary auxiliary heating was required it was provided in either of two equally dangerous forms. Electric bar heaters – ours featured a pair of red hot elements, only just protected by a chrome plated grill with adult thumb width gaps conveniently placed a toddler level. We even toasted bread on a metal fork with this sinister contraption. If the real risk of electrocution or third degree burns wasn't your bag, the other option was the faithful paraffin heater – yes, every good home should have a tank of flammable liquid with a burning wick to produce a cosy heat source especially in bedrooms. Our home used the brand ‘Pink Paraffin’ but for a few coppers more you could buy the posh stuff they advertised on telly, and for which I can still sing the sign-off jingle "Boom Boom Boom Boom ...Esso Blue!" Now I see it typed I'm not entirely sure 'Boom' was an appropriate word to use when promoting a fuel product that caused 3,004 house fires in 1961. This is the precise number according to a report I just found online. The next line from the same report reads "The statistics do not show how many deaths were caused by these fires, but it seems from sampling that there were rather fewer than 30 in each year". So, not that bad after all! [joking]
Even with this array of heating, move two or three metres from the heat source in the depth of winter and you would plunge into bitterly cold air. The procedure for bedtime started by preparing the bed with eiderdowns and sometimes even heavy overcoats on top, plus one or more hot water bottles under the blankets. The latter was essential for some heat at least. Thick woollen pyjamas, a heavy dressing gown and even multiple pairs of socks where required to transit between rooms via hallway and stairs, walking mostly on freezing cold Lino floors. It was often the case of getting into bed wearing this full ensemble of night time clothing, none of which prevented the initial chattering of teeth and intense body shivering which did eventual subside enough to fall asleep. By morning the bed had become a warm cocoon and it was very difficult to extract one's self from such a cosy snuggery back out into the cold cruel world. Itchy chilblains on my feet and fingers was a common occurrence as a child but it never did me any lasting harm.
I can't finish the inventory of the 'House of horror appliances' without mention of the ultimate safety hazard. People of a certain age will tremble in fear at the mere mention of the 'Ascot Gas Water Heater'. This innocent sounding device was commonly wall mounted in kitchens and bathrooms. The white cylindrical 'rather industrial looking' design featured a hot and cold tap with a long extended chrome outlet pipe that could be swivelled a full 180º left to right. In our bathroom at Charleville Circus 'The Ascot' was positioned between the sink and the bath so that the swivel pipe could reach both. Even though the 'mixer' taps should have controlled output temperature I only remember water being dispensed at ‘artic circle' cold or 'surface-of-the-sun' hot. I'm sure we would partially fill the sink or bath with cold first and then add the scalding hot, steamy water to bring it up to the required temperature.
Although I was too young to remember the ‘great freeze’ of 1962/3 we certainly lived at Charleville Circus during the historic weather event. I do however recall thick ice on the window panes both inside and out – a memory many of my generation tell me that they know well.
Last edited by Charleville on 17 Feb 2024 11:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
A short but somewhat macabre story based my childhood memory, involves the high wall at the bottom of our garden.
It was not unusual back in the day, for people to add a rather cheap but gruesome security feature to walls that they didn't want people to clamber over. The back wall of our Charleville Circus home had such an attribute installed by a previous owner. It was simply a row of broken glass bottles set into concrete with the menacing glass shards pointing upwards.
Even as a child I sensed the danger this represented and I remain puzzled to this day why anyone felt the risk of property invasion was so great to warrant such hazardous protection. Especially when you consider that the garden backed onto an even larger garden of quite a grand old house. I'm pretty sure if you adopted the same trick now it would be frowned upon not least by your property insurers.
Anyway to the fateful day. It was not an unwelcome human intruder but a feline creature that must have been on its ninth life. What happened one can only guess but it came to a horrific bloody end, its lifeless body entangled on multiple jagged points. My precise recollection of the ghastly scene is slightly vague and I'm not certain who discovered the shocking demise of the poor creature. What is very clear in my mind is watching my father standing on a set of steps and carefully retrieving the cat's hideous remains into a sack.
The picture attached to this post shows the wall at the back of the garden in 1964. If memory serves, I think my dad had removed the nasty glass deterrent by this stage. I'm in the centre of the picture when I was young and energetic enough to create a blurred figure for the camera, and my younger brother is in the background. It wasn't until I scanned this photograph and viewed it in such detail that I noticed for the first time ever, my dad climbing a tree. The photo detective in me leads me to consider some unanswered questions. Why was my dad climbing the tree? Fixing the washing line possibly. Why did my mother (the only other person with access to the camera) choose this moment in time to take the photo? I'm sure she wasn't so cruel as to want to capture her loving husband come crashing to the ground. Who knows, but I love this picture for everything it represents - home, family, energy and hope for the future.
The garden at 15 Charleville Circus...
It was not unusual back in the day, for people to add a rather cheap but gruesome security feature to walls that they didn't want people to clamber over. The back wall of our Charleville Circus home had such an attribute installed by a previous owner. It was simply a row of broken glass bottles set into concrete with the menacing glass shards pointing upwards.
Even as a child I sensed the danger this represented and I remain puzzled to this day why anyone felt the risk of property invasion was so great to warrant such hazardous protection. Especially when you consider that the garden backed onto an even larger garden of quite a grand old house. I'm pretty sure if you adopted the same trick now it would be frowned upon not least by your property insurers.
Anyway to the fateful day. It was not an unwelcome human intruder but a feline creature that must have been on its ninth life. What happened one can only guess but it came to a horrific bloody end, its lifeless body entangled on multiple jagged points. My precise recollection of the ghastly scene is slightly vague and I'm not certain who discovered the shocking demise of the poor creature. What is very clear in my mind is watching my father standing on a set of steps and carefully retrieving the cat's hideous remains into a sack.
The picture attached to this post shows the wall at the back of the garden in 1964. If memory serves, I think my dad had removed the nasty glass deterrent by this stage. I'm in the centre of the picture when I was young and energetic enough to create a blurred figure for the camera, and my younger brother is in the background. It wasn't until I scanned this photograph and viewed it in such detail that I noticed for the first time ever, my dad climbing a tree. The photo detective in me leads me to consider some unanswered questions. Why was my dad climbing the tree? Fixing the washing line possibly. Why did my mother (the only other person with access to the camera) choose this moment in time to take the photo? I'm sure she wasn't so cruel as to want to capture her loving husband come crashing to the ground. Who knows, but I love this picture for everything it represents - home, family, energy and hope for the future.
The garden at 15 Charleville Circus...
Last edited by Charleville on 28 Sep 2023 03:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
I noticed something about the last photo that I posted. There is a small structure, not unlike a glass house on the roof at the building at the back. When compared with a previous photo I posted on this page and at: https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 82#p195782 the same structure had gone. This leads me to reassess the date on the winter scene picture as 1965/66 and not 1963. It would also make sense that we would have had greater access to take the photo later on when tenants had left, before my parents sold the house and we moved a few months later in April 1966.
This is a small detail, but as well as a personal memoir I hope the content of this page will prove useful one day as a historic record.
This is a small detail, but as well as a personal memoir I hope the content of this page will prove useful one day as a historic record.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Our Sydenham telephone number
In the olden days when telephones were attached to the wall with a short cord, there was a peculiar but very easy method to verbally relay a telephone number.
Inner city areas, towns and villages had a three digit prefix created from the place name. So SYDenham was SYD which when dialled on an old rotary dial went like this:
S - PRS = 7
Y - WXY = 9
D - DEF = 3
The actual number in my day was four digit but was even shorter before that.
Our Charleville Circus number was '7472' which is all you dialled from within the SYD area. From outside you would dial '793 7472'. Please don't call us now as we are no longer at this home.
In old time British movies you might hear the following dialogue "he has been murdered ...quick call Whitehall one two, one two". This was the famous telephone number for Scotland Yard. If you called the Metropolitan Police today for a non-emergency enquiry you would dial 101 but calling from abroad you would need to dial +44 20 7230 1212 – recognise those last 4 digits?
I've made a little graphic mock-up here to show the old style of Bakelite telephone we had at Charleville Circus. Note the little pull-out drawer at the bottom. And, our number shown in an old telephone directory.
In the olden days when telephones were attached to the wall with a short cord, there was a peculiar but very easy method to verbally relay a telephone number.
Inner city areas, towns and villages had a three digit prefix created from the place name. So SYDenham was SYD which when dialled on an old rotary dial went like this:
S - PRS = 7
Y - WXY = 9
D - DEF = 3
The actual number in my day was four digit but was even shorter before that.
Our Charleville Circus number was '7472' which is all you dialled from within the SYD area. From outside you would dial '793 7472'. Please don't call us now as we are no longer at this home.
In old time British movies you might hear the following dialogue "he has been murdered ...quick call Whitehall one two, one two". This was the famous telephone number for Scotland Yard. If you called the Metropolitan Police today for a non-emergency enquiry you would dial 101 but calling from abroad you would need to dial +44 20 7230 1212 – recognise those last 4 digits?
I've made a little graphic mock-up here to show the old style of Bakelite telephone we had at Charleville Circus. Note the little pull-out drawer at the bottom. And, our number shown in an old telephone directory.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Aerial views of Charleville Circus from Historic England Archive
Links of views you can zoom-in to see some incredible detail.
RAF vertical photo plane shot in 1946 including large proportions of Wells Park & Crystal Palace Park with Charleville Circus in the centre
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... 56_FV_7124
Aerofilms large scale oblique photo plane shot in 1964 of Crystal Palace Park looking towards Upper Sydenham from the south-west with television transmission tower and Charleville Circus in the centre
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW126003
Small scale oblique photo plane shot in 1950 over Crystal Palace Park from the south with Charleville Circus in the centre of the image.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAR012738
Aerofilms medium scale oblique photo plane shot in 1946 of Crystal Palace Park looking towards Upper Sydenham from the south with Ministry of Works vehicle salvage depot on the site of Crystal Palace and Charleville Circus top-right.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW000570
Aerofilms medium scale oblique photo plane shot in 1950 of Crystal Palace Park viewed from the south with Charleville Circus in centre middle distance.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAR012738
More at Historic England Aerial Photo Explorer
Links of views you can zoom-in to see some incredible detail.
RAF vertical photo plane shot in 1946 including large proportions of Wells Park & Crystal Palace Park with Charleville Circus in the centre
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... 56_FV_7124
Aerofilms large scale oblique photo plane shot in 1964 of Crystal Palace Park looking towards Upper Sydenham from the south-west with television transmission tower and Charleville Circus in the centre
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW126003
Small scale oblique photo plane shot in 1950 over Crystal Palace Park from the south with Charleville Circus in the centre of the image.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAR012738
Aerofilms medium scale oblique photo plane shot in 1946 of Crystal Palace Park looking towards Upper Sydenham from the south with Ministry of Works vehicle salvage depot on the site of Crystal Palace and Charleville Circus top-right.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAW000570
Aerofilms medium scale oblique photo plane shot in 1950 of Crystal Palace Park viewed from the south with Charleville Circus in centre middle distance.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-b ... /EAR012738
More at Historic England Aerial Photo Explorer
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Compared to young children today, we had more freedom at the age of five or six to venture unsupervised slightly beyond the sanctuary of home. In our case this was the eastern segment of Charleville Circus. I grew up very familiar with the entrance roads from Westwood Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road and our part of the ‘Circus’, but I never walked around the ‘other side’ either alone or with our parents. I knew it existed, but it wasn’t until mature adulthood and making one of my hometown pilgrimages that I wandered around the full circuit – it felt very weird to be on the ‘wrong side’!
I remember when my younger brother and I walked along the road, there was an elderly couple I seem to recall living at number 19 Charleville Circus, who would call down to us from the top floor window. Once they had our attention the old man would throw down sweets. His aim was pretty good, as most reached the pavement and only occasionally would he over shoot into the road or fall short with the prize landing in the front garden. In all cases we managed to collect up the entire haul. I don’t know why I remember the old man being ex. Polish military just like my own father. My Dad would occasionally stop in the street to chat to him in their native tongue and I sensed from the situation that the old man out-ranked my father, who was a corporal in the First Polish Armoured Division during the war.
Another place my brother and I would often find ourselves was at the garages where Lincoln Court is now situated. When I look at Google Street View, I can see the parking area is much higher and more level now. Before there was a hill with a good slope that we rode our scooters down at what seemed a very high speed. At the bottom there were a row of garages either side with a brick wall at the end. I wonder if anyone has a photo of how it originally looked.
My brother and I sitting at the front door of 15 Charleville Circus
I remember when my younger brother and I walked along the road, there was an elderly couple I seem to recall living at number 19 Charleville Circus, who would call down to us from the top floor window. Once they had our attention the old man would throw down sweets. His aim was pretty good, as most reached the pavement and only occasionally would he over shoot into the road or fall short with the prize landing in the front garden. In all cases we managed to collect up the entire haul. I don’t know why I remember the old man being ex. Polish military just like my own father. My Dad would occasionally stop in the street to chat to him in their native tongue and I sensed from the situation that the old man out-ranked my father, who was a corporal in the First Polish Armoured Division during the war.
Another place my brother and I would often find ourselves was at the garages where Lincoln Court is now situated. When I look at Google Street View, I can see the parking area is much higher and more level now. Before there was a hill with a good slope that we rode our scooters down at what seemed a very high speed. At the bottom there were a row of garages either side with a brick wall at the end. I wonder if anyone has a photo of how it originally looked.
My brother and I sitting at the front door of 15 Charleville Circus
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
I have a couple of photographs of my birthday party in October 1964, aged six (confirmed by the number of candles on the cake), taken at home in Charleville Circus, Sydenham. I tried to work out which room of the house this photo was taken – my best guess is it's on the lower ground floor at the front. One of my brothers is on my right and another one sitting in the folding chair at the front. The other children are friends from my school, St. Philip's infants and tenants who lived in the house, such as the only girl in the picture who lived upstairs. The only school friend's name I remember in full was 'Paul Ratford' or 'Radford'. Another boy's christian name I recall was Philip.
In the centre of the table is a pink rabbit blancmange. Mum used to make this in a metal rabbit shaped tin mould. It was always placed on green jelly to represent grass and the rabbit's eyes were sultanas. The fayre on the table was very simple in those days ...no chicken tikka drumsticks or Mexican chilli Pringles!
In the centre of the table is a pink rabbit blancmange. Mum used to make this in a metal rabbit shaped tin mould. It was always placed on green jelly to represent grass and the rabbit's eyes were sultanas. The fayre on the table was very simple in those days ...no chicken tikka drumsticks or Mexican chilli Pringles!
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Charleville Circus History Part 1
1854
Crystal Palace opens in Sydenham after the structure has been transported from Hyde Park and reassembled.
Extract from 'A Brief History of Lawrie Park' Sydenham & Forest Hill Local History
George Wythes of Bickley Hall bought the site enclosed by Crystal Palace Park Road, Lawrie Park Road and Westwood Hill. Wythes made his fortune building railways, so developing housing was a new venture. On the strength of his success at Lawrie Park, he went on to develop Bickley Park. It was surely no coincidence that Wythes was a good friend of Sir Joseph Paxton.
Wythes employed William Goodwin as his builder. The Goodwin family had built houses in London Road and the Jews Walk conservation area. They now turned their attention to Lawrie Park. By 1858 there was “a large manufacture of bricks on the upper part of the land”. Charleville Circus, the final development, was built over the brickworks in the mid-1880s.
Link: https://stevegrindlay.wordpress.com/200 ... wrie-park/
1864
Brickfield was one of the latter areas to be developed around Crystal Palace. The name suggests it would have been a storage area for building materials, most likely the output from the Brick Kilns shown on the 1879 map, north of West Hill.
New Charleville Circus road layout shown with access via West Hill only. Former ‘Rock Cottage’ shown is approximate location of 15/17 Charleville Circus.
1879
Why 'Charleville'? Any connection with Charleville [Charles Town] in France? Towns named Charleville can also be found in Ireland and Australia.
Transcript from Sydenham, Forest Hill & Penge Gazette dated 7th June 1879.
Capital Building Sites
Mr. T. R. MEAKIN will Let by Auction at the Mart, near the Bank of England, on Tuesday July 1st, at Twelve o'clock.
UPPER SYDENHAM – Several choice Building sites in Charleville Circus, between West Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road, close to the Crystal Palace and six minutes' walk from the High Level and Sydenham Railway Stations. Roads and sewers are formed. The sites are admirably adapted for the erection of detached villa residences, and the centre part of the circus offers a fine position for a church or public institution.
The previous map shows little or no building development between West Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road so it might be assumed that there was a clear line of sight between the two main roads.
1883
Transcript from Norwood News & Crystal Palace Chronicle dated 26th May 1883.
Offer of Building Land - Centre of Circus
SYDENHAM, near to the Crystal Palace and three railway stations. – Valuable Freehold Building Land in Charleville Circus, between Crystal Palace Park Road and West Hill, forming the central portion of the circus, and offering a good site for a church, chapel, club or institute, or for private houses. The roads are sewered, and gas and water laid on. For sale, with possession, by.
1888
The National Archives
[Lewisham Local History and Archives Centre]
Plans showing street numbering: Charleville Circus. BW 1888
We can concluded the houses in Charleville Circus were built by this date.
Link: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 0c8f83eec6
1854
Crystal Palace opens in Sydenham after the structure has been transported from Hyde Park and reassembled.
Extract from 'A Brief History of Lawrie Park' Sydenham & Forest Hill Local History
George Wythes of Bickley Hall bought the site enclosed by Crystal Palace Park Road, Lawrie Park Road and Westwood Hill. Wythes made his fortune building railways, so developing housing was a new venture. On the strength of his success at Lawrie Park, he went on to develop Bickley Park. It was surely no coincidence that Wythes was a good friend of Sir Joseph Paxton.
Wythes employed William Goodwin as his builder. The Goodwin family had built houses in London Road and the Jews Walk conservation area. They now turned their attention to Lawrie Park. By 1858 there was “a large manufacture of bricks on the upper part of the land”. Charleville Circus, the final development, was built over the brickworks in the mid-1880s.
Link: https://stevegrindlay.wordpress.com/200 ... wrie-park/
1864
Brickfield was one of the latter areas to be developed around Crystal Palace. The name suggests it would have been a storage area for building materials, most likely the output from the Brick Kilns shown on the 1879 map, north of West Hill.
New Charleville Circus road layout shown with access via West Hill only. Former ‘Rock Cottage’ shown is approximate location of 15/17 Charleville Circus.
1879
Why 'Charleville'? Any connection with Charleville [Charles Town] in France? Towns named Charleville can also be found in Ireland and Australia.
Transcript from Sydenham, Forest Hill & Penge Gazette dated 7th June 1879.
Capital Building Sites
Mr. T. R. MEAKIN will Let by Auction at the Mart, near the Bank of England, on Tuesday July 1st, at Twelve o'clock.
UPPER SYDENHAM – Several choice Building sites in Charleville Circus, between West Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road, close to the Crystal Palace and six minutes' walk from the High Level and Sydenham Railway Stations. Roads and sewers are formed. The sites are admirably adapted for the erection of detached villa residences, and the centre part of the circus offers a fine position for a church or public institution.
The previous map shows little or no building development between West Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road so it might be assumed that there was a clear line of sight between the two main roads.
1883
Transcript from Norwood News & Crystal Palace Chronicle dated 26th May 1883.
Offer of Building Land - Centre of Circus
SYDENHAM, near to the Crystal Palace and three railway stations. – Valuable Freehold Building Land in Charleville Circus, between Crystal Palace Park Road and West Hill, forming the central portion of the circus, and offering a good site for a church, chapel, club or institute, or for private houses. The roads are sewered, and gas and water laid on. For sale, with possession, by.
1888
The National Archives
[Lewisham Local History and Archives Centre]
Plans showing street numbering: Charleville Circus. BW 1888
We can concluded the houses in Charleville Circus were built by this date.
Link: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 0c8f83eec6
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Charleville Circus History Part 2
1891 Census
Most (not all) properties listed on census. Some residents in Charleville Circus during this period were affluent enough to employ a servant whose name would also be on the census.
1901 Census
Most properties listed on census but some errors with house numbers incorrectly logged at 'West Hill'.
1911 Census
Almost all properties listed on census.
1918
Transcript from Sydenham, Forest Hill & Penge Gazette dated 24th May 1918.
By Order of Executors.
SYDENHAM
NOYS and HOWES will SELL by AUCTION at the GREYHOUND HOTEL, SYDENHAM, on WEDNESDAY, 19th June, at 7 o'clock p.m., in
separate lots, the Eleven FREEHOLD HOUSES – Nos. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, and 25 CHARLEVILLE CIRCUS.
Mostly Let at £40 per Annum each, and Plot of Land laid out as tennis lawn.
Solicitors, R. F. Jackson and Bawles, 167, Fenchurch Street, E.C. Auctioneers' Office: 4, Sydenham-road, S.E.
1921
Transcript from The Streatham News and Borough dated 11th February 1921.
F. C. SQUIRE AND CO.
46 Kirkdale, Sydenham
Will sell at the Greyhound Hotel, Sydenham, on Tuesday evening, February 22nd, at 7 p.m., the semi-detached Residence, 15 CHARLEVILLE
CIRCUS, Sydenham. In splendid high position, near Crystal Palace Park, stations and 'buses. Five bed, three reception, bath (h. and c.). Lease
86 years at £12 12s. Ground rent. POSSESSION ON COMPLETION.
Particulars of solicitors, Messrs. Russell, Son and Fisher, 3 Serjeants Inn, E.C.
1921 Census
Almost all properties listed on census.
1936
Crystal Palace Fire
1939
Wartime National Register - Residents of Charleville Circus
Last official record of residents. Next Census (1951) to be published 2052.
1951
Detailed Ordnance Survey Map Scale 1:1250
Full sheet available to view on the National Library of Scotland website
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102906493#
1891 Census
Most (not all) properties listed on census. Some residents in Charleville Circus during this period were affluent enough to employ a servant whose name would also be on the census.
1901 Census
Most properties listed on census but some errors with house numbers incorrectly logged at 'West Hill'.
1911 Census
Almost all properties listed on census.
1918
Transcript from Sydenham, Forest Hill & Penge Gazette dated 24th May 1918.
By Order of Executors.
SYDENHAM
NOYS and HOWES will SELL by AUCTION at the GREYHOUND HOTEL, SYDENHAM, on WEDNESDAY, 19th June, at 7 o'clock p.m., in
separate lots, the Eleven FREEHOLD HOUSES – Nos. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, and 25 CHARLEVILLE CIRCUS.
Mostly Let at £40 per Annum each, and Plot of Land laid out as tennis lawn.
Solicitors, R. F. Jackson and Bawles, 167, Fenchurch Street, E.C. Auctioneers' Office: 4, Sydenham-road, S.E.
1921
Transcript from The Streatham News and Borough dated 11th February 1921.
F. C. SQUIRE AND CO.
46 Kirkdale, Sydenham
Will sell at the Greyhound Hotel, Sydenham, on Tuesday evening, February 22nd, at 7 p.m., the semi-detached Residence, 15 CHARLEVILLE
CIRCUS, Sydenham. In splendid high position, near Crystal Palace Park, stations and 'buses. Five bed, three reception, bath (h. and c.). Lease
86 years at £12 12s. Ground rent. POSSESSION ON COMPLETION.
Particulars of solicitors, Messrs. Russell, Son and Fisher, 3 Serjeants Inn, E.C.
1921 Census
Almost all properties listed on census.
1936
Crystal Palace Fire
1939
Wartime National Register - Residents of Charleville Circus
Last official record of residents. Next Census (1951) to be published 2052.
1951
Detailed Ordnance Survey Map Scale 1:1250
Full sheet available to view on the National Library of Scotland website
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102906493#
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
Charleville Circus now has its own page on WikiTree - a free open source global family tree:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cha ... lace_Study
The idea is to connect the place with people of the past with future study of census data.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cha ... lace_Study
The idea is to connect the place with people of the past with future study of census data.
Re: Charleville Circus
recollections may vary someone once said.
I grew up the other side of wells park, off kirkdale so knew the area well, I always found Charleville Circus a really gloomy place and avoided it. I did though,once accompany a girlfriend to view a flat on the north side and getting shouted at out of an upper window by a Polish landlord who would not let us in.
There was a large polish element in SE26/20 back in the 1950s I recall.
Would that have been your family I wonder? no offence meant.
I grew up the other side of wells park, off kirkdale so knew the area well, I always found Charleville Circus a really gloomy place and avoided it. I did though,once accompany a girlfriend to view a flat on the north side and getting shouted at out of an upper window by a Polish landlord who would not let us in.
There was a large polish element in SE26/20 back in the 1950s I recall.
Would that have been your family I wonder? no offence meant.
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Charleville
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10 Jun 2023 13:22
Re: Charleville Circus
My father embodied gentleness, his voice never raised in anger, a true gentleman.
In my ongoing exploration of our family history, the reason behind my parents' relocation to Sydenham remains elusive. They tied the knot in 1957 in Islington and initially resided in lodgings in Stoke Newington. Perhaps it was a chance visit to a wartime Polish friend of my father's, who lived in Forest Hill, that sparked their interest in the area. Sometimes, we find ourselves drawn to certain places we encounter, a sentiment that resonates with my own decision to settle in North Yorkshire today. Additionally, I've learned of a Polish community in Lewisham post-war, complete with its church and social hub, which may have influenced their choice.
I often tell my children to ask me questions now, before I'm no longer around to answer. If only I could have my parents back for just a few hours, there's so much I would love to learn from them.
In my ongoing exploration of our family history, the reason behind my parents' relocation to Sydenham remains elusive. They tied the knot in 1957 in Islington and initially resided in lodgings in Stoke Newington. Perhaps it was a chance visit to a wartime Polish friend of my father's, who lived in Forest Hill, that sparked their interest in the area. Sometimes, we find ourselves drawn to certain places we encounter, a sentiment that resonates with my own decision to settle in North Yorkshire today. Additionally, I've learned of a Polish community in Lewisham post-war, complete with its church and social hub, which may have influenced their choice.
I often tell my children to ask me questions now, before I'm no longer around to answer. If only I could have my parents back for just a few hours, there's so much I would love to learn from them.
Re: Charleville Circus
I can recall a polish run off license by Penge East station whose owner introduced me to 'polish pure spirit' about 90% proof, ye gods.
another offy in Penge Lane polish owned, and around the corner from him Stephans stores where I bought ham rolls fro mid morning tea break and I worked in Elmers end cemeery with a Tadeuz? you'll spell it right, we called him Ted,whose son was copper in Penge nick. Ted was a war veteran from 1939, some amazing tales he told and an interesting life.
My old man was at Monte Casino where the Polish fought, I always assumed all these Polish guys had stayed on after 1945 as Poland had been over run by Stalin and his Marxist mob.
another offy in Penge Lane polish owned, and around the corner from him Stephans stores where I bought ham rolls fro mid morning tea break and I worked in Elmers end cemeery with a Tadeuz? you'll spell it right, we called him Ted,whose son was copper in Penge nick. Ted was a war veteran from 1939, some amazing tales he told and an interesting life.
My old man was at Monte Casino where the Polish fought, I always assumed all these Polish guys had stayed on after 1945 as Poland had been over run by Stalin and his Marxist mob.