Planning Application - Gas Holder site

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broken_shaman
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Joined: 20 Nov 2013 21:08
Location: United Kingdom

Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by broken_shaman »

The planning application for the (former) Gas Holder site is now live and open for comments etc...

Three buildings proposed, "between 5 and 15 storeys". It says something about phased development, which presumably means they won't build the next one until they've sold what's been built, so construction could potentially go on for years?

"mixed use development including 261 residential homes, 867 sqm new flexible Class E floorspace (retail and workspace), alongside new landscaping, play space, car parking, cycle parking, plant and associated works"

8 car parking spaces, for blue badge holders.

Image

https://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/

Ref: DC/23/129814
alywin
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by alywin »

Car parking? How dare they?! Looks pretty similar - although not as large - to the one they're trying to get through in the centre of Penge at the moment (but with more parking) :( Probably more suitable for Bell Green, too? I thought the ground had been designated too polluted to build homes on?
RJM
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Location: Sydenham

Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by RJM »

The application reckons this will take 4 years!
broken_shaman
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by broken_shaman »

To clarify, there will only be 8 parking spaces, for blue badge holders. The process so far has involved talk of a car free development. The application suggests there is nowhere nearby to park, as all the roads have double yellow lines and the car parks have time limits. They don't mention that those lines all have cars parked on them. So likely that any cars will be in the surrounding roads. Of course, it seems Lewisham will be trying to force a CPZ on the whole area in the next year or two, as they are currently aiming to do in Crofton Park, which may mean any car owners in a car free development won't be able to get permits.
alywin
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by alywin »

Ah, sorry, I misread that. 8 disabled parking bays is what's proposed for the Penge development, too. Having car-free developments is all very well in theory, but doesn't tend to work so well in practice. Apart from anything else, you'll probably find the "disabled" bays occupied by cars with non-disabled owners, which ain't the point of the exercise.
PHDR
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by PHDR »

I have just had a look at the planning documents and there is an affordable homes document. I noticed this paragraph.

However, if grant funding is not available the level of affordable housing would be 4% (by habitable room). The affordable mix would be as follows:
• Affordable homes – targeting delivery of 9 affordable homes, equating to 30 affordable habitable rooms, which is 4% out of the total of 715 habitable rooms.
• Affordable tenure mix – the targeting split of the 9 affordable homes is 5 units as London Affordable Rent and 4 units as shared ownership, which equates to 20 habitable rooms for London Affordable Rent (67% of the affordable total) and 10 habitable rooms for shared ownership (33% of the affordable total).
• Affordable size mix – London Affordable Rent flats comprise a combination of two bedroom units (20%) and three bedroom (80%) units, whereas the shared ownership flats comprise a combination of one bedroom units (50%) and two bedroom units (50%).

If the housing grant isn’t available then all they have to deliver is the above.

Planning documents can be viewed here https://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/onlin ... APR_117736
alywin
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by alywin »

The London Plan sets a target of 50% "affordable" homes :(
The Clown
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by The Clown »

I can’t object as I’m technically over the border but if I could I would do so on the following grounds:

There has been a lack of consultation and consideration of local residents views. May we query what measures and assurances will we have in respect of full building lifecycle and estate management?
The Design, appearance and materials are not in keeping with the local area. This is not acceptable.
This area has a rich Victorian Heritage, such as the Livesey Hall etc. This heritage should be reflected in the architecture and the scale should be proportionate to the existing landscape.
The layout and density of building is not in keeping with the local area. This is not acceptable
Landscaping is insufficient in size and biodiversity to offset the carbon generation of the building. This is not acceptable. Even if the entire roof expanse is landscaped to create a public garden it would not offset the impact of the extensive building plans
Sydenham has a village feel and enjoys a feeling of space and openness. The skyline is not impeded by high rise buildings and a precedent for high rise development should not be set.
High rise residential properties have been proven problematic to make safe, and are not considered desirable homes.
Neighbouring properties and public spaces and streets, will lose natural light blocked by the high rise properties and be overshadowed. This is unacceptable.
Neighbouring properties will be overlooked and will be subjected to loss of privacy due to the high rise properties. This is unacceptable.
Visual amenities will be impaired by the high rise properties. This is unacceptable
7 floors would provide a significant impediment to the local area and this height is not acceptable. It is possible to make a profit from improving the estate by way of quality, without the need for high rise building.

Adequacy of parking/loading/turning will be impeded. Free local parking has historically assisted greatly in supporting high street retailers.
The impact will be devastating to local businesses and lead to loss of jobs, services and to the vibrancy of the local area, as has been seen in Lewisham and Bromley where the impact to the local area has been devastating.
Traffic will increase as a result of multiple delivery drivers attending the estate and failing to be able to park, impacting highway safety and causing traffic generation. There will be a significant increase in the number of motorbikes and scooters impacting highway safety and causing traffic generation. These matters are unacceptable.
Local Road access and volume of traffic will still increase significantly and will in fact worsen as a result multiple trips from multiple delivery drivers rather than one driver making a single trip as a car owner with parking on site.
PTAL cannot be relied upon. The strategy is flawed. The area has lost train services and other public transport service reductions, since the start of the pandemic, significantly impacting tenants ability to move freely without cars of their own. Cycling provision in the local areas inadequate and when sought to be improved poorly planned and the budget used on “easy wins” rather then genuine improvements (See the debacle outside Sydenham Harris girl’s school)
Parking will simply be pushed to nearby roads and negatively impact local residents.

Noise and local disturbance will increase from the use of the estate by a significantly higher number of residents.
As there is an inadequate consideration of the waste management for such a significantly sized estate and the impact on the infrastructure and services there will be a risk of the increase of noxious smells and drainage issues, as well as an increase in the risk of flooding
There will be a significant increase in the demand for local resources schools/ hospitals/GPs/Dental Practices etc. which are already significantly over-subscribed.
JRW
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JRW »

You can definitely comment on this planning application. The consultation zone is the limit of their leafleting. If you are within the boundary and didn't get notified about the application, then please email planning.lewisham.gov.uk, including your full postal address and let them know immediately. The Bell Green Neighbourhood has heard from people on Perry Rise and Perry Hill, who didnt get the notifications delivered. We'd like to hear from people in the zone who also got missed out.
Bellgreennf@gmail.com
alywin
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by alywin »

@The Clown, we were told in relation to the Penge Blenheim Centre redevelopment plan that you don't even need to be living in the local area to object - isn't that the same for Lewisham? (And hey, you could pretty much just change a few words of your post and submit it for the Penge application as well!) With regard to the harmful effects of high-rise living, you might want to quote the paper we've been quoting: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/ ... gies_1.pdf)
perryman
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by perryman »

If you look what they have planned for the whole of the old gas site going forward, this is just the beginning. The whole site will be covered in 20+ story flats, with not even a pocket park to give some breathing space.
The jewel in the crown will be a bakerloo station where the bridge over the river pool currently sits.

The savacentre, aldi's, the appalling Currys and all the other large out-of-town shops will go.
Someone is going to make an absolute fortune but realistically, not enough in their eyes, to actually clear away any of the toxins that bubble away under the surface of the site.
JRW
Posts: 547
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JRW »

The Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum has a panel of local architects, civil engineers, a traffic engineer and environmental experts who have studied the plans. We are all keen to see this site redevelop, but think that this application is unsatisfactory. This is their response.

Emma Talbot, Director of Planning, Lewisham Council Planning Ref. DC/23/129814 Barratt Homes
Bell Green Works
Objections from the expert panel of the Bell Green Neighbourhood Group
Approved by the membership, 25th March; submitted 27th March 2023

1. The development has far too few affordable homes. Barratt is offering only 4% affordable housing. Lewisham’s strategic target is 50% of all new homes. Lewisham’s minimum requirement for fast-track route is 35% affordable housing. The 4% isn’t guaranteed and may be revised down for ‘financial viability’ reasons.

2. The development has a disproportionate number of one-bedroom units, and the balance of property sizes will be a problem if Barratt should not be able to get a subsidy from the Mayor of London. The draft Lewisham Local Plan Policy H01 section E states that “a reasonable proportion of family units [3 bed or more] to be delivered on major developments. This scheme offers only 10% family dwellings.

3. The footprint of the Barratt scheme threatens the viability of the Livesey Memorial Hall and sports grounds. By placing the blocks so close to the Livesey, the existing use of the rear space as a smokers bar area will conflict with the many bedrooms that will overlook ‘Livesey Square’, as the developers name this area, and create conflict between the Halls existing use and the new residents. The Livesey is protected under the Agent of Change principle in the revised National Planning Policy Framework of 2018.

4. the Lewisham Plan quotes it, saying “New noise-sensitive development is situated away from existing noise generating uses and activities, or, where this is not possible, providing adequate separation and acoustic design measures.” See https://www.shoosmiths.co.uk/insights/a ... iple-14454

5. The developers intend to address the Livesey’s potential for noise nuisance issues by making windows onto that aspect non-opening. The cooling system, however, doesn’t provide the capacity to manage this, and the shallow window reveals will amplify the overheating problem. The green credentials of the scheme are inadequate, including the compromise in using air heat pumps instead of ground heat pumps, while their calculations are not futureproofed against climate change. Briary’s energy strategy report proposes inadequate 93 litres per second air flow to combat overheating. There is no mention of adiabatic cooling, or ground air pumps.

6. The public spaces on the development are problematic, being largely in the wrong place, and poorly thought through. Areas are included which are likely to encourage antisocial behaviour, play provision is made where there is very little sunlight, and the commercial units are scattered around, providing very little sense of place. Plantings seem inappropriate for the suggested area use, and bike racks are placed where they will obstruct pedestrians. The SGN gas substation is poorly integrated into the scheme, as is the 15-storey point block D.

7. Barratt Homes is not contributing to the local infrastructure that their development’s new residents will rely on. Neither the NHS’s need for the new Neighbourhood 4 hub at Sydenham Green Health Centre, nor the critical losses of local sports provision are advanced.

8. Barratt are applying for a car-free development, despite a Public Transport Access Level of 2 – out of a possible 6b. The 2021 London Plan says that PTAL 5-6 developments must be carfree. Inner London developments with PTAL 2 may have a maximum 0.5 spaces per dwelling. PTAL 2 shows the poor public transport makes a car-free development unrealistic, and grossly overdelivers the London Plan requirements for PTAL2 areas.

9. The development fails to deliver on the London Plan requirements for sustainability. The Design & Access Statement doesn’t address the issues at all, and the Sustainability Statement shows the development doesn’t minimise carbon emissions in construction and operation, as claimed. The Whole-Life Carbon Statement lacks citations for its benchmarks, and the Circular Economy targets are not ambitious. Futureproofing has not been achieved, despite the immediate threat of global warming.

10. The development is not exemplary architectural quality and should not be used to set the tone for developments coming forward locally, as suggested by Barratt in their Planning Statement (1.3).

11. The Livesey consists of 3 nationally listed structures. The Livesey Memorial Hall, its Front Wall, and the Livesey Hall War Memorial are each separately listed Grade II by Historic England. The draft Lewisham Local Plan I c. states that: “Important views, both of and from the listed building are protected”, in developments involving listed buildings, and Barratts site adjoins the Hall’s curtilage at their western boundary.

12. Barratts have failed to produce images of the visual impact of the development behind the Livesey from Perry Hill, despite being asked repeatedly. We need to see a series of artist’s realisations of the set views, or preferably a 3-D model so the local community can understand what they are being consulted on.

13. Lewisham’s own commissioned Lower Sydenham and Bell Green Vision Study shows that buildings of up to 5 storeys are suitable in the site zone. Given that the developers were instructed by Lewisham to follow the Vision Study, it is surprising that they are applying for tall buildings including a 15-storey point block. There is no townscape justification for a tower on this site, and with the massing of the other blocks, will have a negative impact on the listed Livesey Memorial Hall.

14. The heritage report is inaccurate and makes several false assumptions with no evidence cited. The claim that the Livesey’s rear was separated from the gasholders by a brick wall, and there was no visual continuity across the boundary is totally untrue. Photographic evidence from 1911, 1920, and later show that the rear boundary was a high-quality oak fence, scalloped to echo the ellipse-and-post pattern of the listed Front Wall. The posts were about 5 foot high, but the scallops reduced the height by at least a foot. A low gate allowed movement between the areas, which is in approximately the same place as the locked gate in the security fencing of the Barratt site. These decorative features invited views of the gasworks from the Livesey, and vice versa. This has implications for establishing the Hall’s curtilage.

15. Air quality – the development contributes to an increase in PM10 and NO2 at noted sensitive receptors. Although these are below the objective limits, are very minor and not significant, there is a lost opportunity in not seeking to minimise exposure of the new residents (and those residents who already use the area surrounding the site) to poor air quality. Measures such as those set out in the GLA’s Air Quality Positive Guidance should be considered further.

16. Transport & Access
a. No provide kerbed location for the accessibility requirements for black cabs.
b. Lack of short-stay cycle parking to satisfy a decent level of coverage - within 15m of each commercial unit entrance.
c. No demonstration of sufficient sustainable urban drainage systems to mitigation measures against the likelihood off pooling/standing water.
d. The provision of car parking adjacent to F-02 and F-03 residential units should be revised to increase separation between residential units and the parked vehicles.
e. No allocated provision of pick up / drop-off area/bay for residents.
f. Lack of protection to cycle stands adjacent to Workspace 04.
g. No provision of vehicle restraint measures to prevent vehicles reversing too far into Alan Pegg Place Garden.
h. The provision of short-stay cycle parking is not within the visibility of retail units leading to a reduction of natural surveillance which could increase the likelihood of cycle theft.
i. No provision of secure cycle parking for delivery cargo bikes and charging facilities for ecargo bikes.
j. No provision of charging facilities for residential e-bike charging.
k. Provision of loading bay is on the side of the road where there are no workspaces – concern with noise to adjacent residential units at ground floor and operational concern of loading/unloading requires crossing the road to access commercial units.
l. Accessibility concerns with shared surface areas where pedestrians with visual impairments could find difficulties in navigating this space safely.
m. Concerns with no provision of inset loading bay on Alan Pegg Way servicing the Retail units, Workspace 01 and residential Lobby A – this would help to reduce the need for commercial vehicles needing to access via heavily used access road to the east of the site.
n. No on-site car club provided – closest car club is located 650m walk from site.
o. Concerns with the lack of onsite parking provision will adversely affect the surrounding areas. There should at least be the provision of car parking on site for residents of up to 0.25 spaces per dwelling to match that of the London Plan 2021 Inner London PTAL 3, which is immediately adjacent to the site. This is a reasonable balance considering the ambitions of a new rail station at Bell Green. This would increase the parking provision by up to 57 spaces on site.
JGD
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JGD »

A credible and creditable response.

Congratulations to everyone who had an input. The hard work that has gone into its preparation is clearly evident.

An issue not to be forgotten and will have significant impact on existing residents and businesses and to be pressed with both companies, Barratts and the Livesey Quarter Development people.

Realignment of the roadway including alteration to the kerb alignment at the corner of Selworthy Road and extending to the junction of Perry Rise to recreate a full two-lane highway in that section which will improve traffic movement throughput on the approaches to the traffic lights. Simple measures including Road Traffic Orders from LB Lewisham to alter the parking regime (including no parking on the Livesey Hall side) to be seven days a week are entirely achievable.
JGD
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JGD »

Personal response made on portal:
I am a resident and near neighbour to the site for this proposed development.

I OBJECT to and oppose the proposal in its entirety.

My reasons accord with the details laid out in the Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum formal response made on 27th March 2023.

It is noted that LB Lewisham elects not to make submissions made through this portal or by email, accessible to the public, therefore I am unable to provide an internal cross-reference to the Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum formal response to assist you.
RJM
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by RJM »

Does anyone know what's happened with this planning application? The original link in this thread says it's been removed, and the reference number doesn't give any results.
JRW
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JRW »

I'm happy to say that Barratts withdrew their application (at the last possible moment) before it would have been rejected. Withdrawing it allowed them to remove all the plans from the database. Of course, the Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum have saved copies of them all anyway. So many complaints, but crucially, neither Lewisham, nor the GLA thought that the application was ready to be presented. Barratts will be back again, but hopefully will have listened to the points raised. Apparently they really weren't expecting to be knocked back .......
RJM
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by RJM »

That's good news - I hope they come back with something a bit more appropriate!
michael
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by michael »

RJM wrote: 23 Aug 2023 15:39 Does anyone know what's happened with this planning application? The original link in this thread says it's been removed, and the reference number doesn't give any results.
I emailed the planning department and the link to the withdrawn application will now be working.
https://planning.lewisham.gov.uk/online ... APR_117736
JGD
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Re: Planning Application - Gas Holder site

Post by JGD »

Interesting - whatever modification Lewisham made to the entry, it triggered an automatic update email to me.

Whilst the email set the status as "Decided" the entry in the portal was set to "Withdrawn by Applicant".
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