About 10 years ago there was a nice little pocket of antique shops in this area but half of them have gone now which is a shame.
I'm no fan of Tesco's taking over the world, but I agree that nothing very positive is happening in this area of Kirkdale at the moment and this might help stimulate the retail in this area.
Tesco will probably be bad news for those shops which are in direct competition for "corner shop" trade, but good news for other retail. Despite living close by, I never really walk up this direction. Tesco could create more "passing trade" for the other shops. If they offer something better, different or cheaper than Tesco, they may prosper.
New Tesco in Kirkdale?
Email planning@lewisham.gov.uk and quote application number DC/08/69610/Xdickp wrote:excellent.
Does this mean I will have the chance to buy fresh meat, and vegetable that aren't rotting, without having to trek to forest hill?
Where do I sign my letter of support?
Yep, I'm very happy with that.
I did hear news of this in the Woodman (or it may have been in Balti King!) the other week, either way 'they' seemed to be happy too due to the anticipated increase in passing trade. Seems I got confused though, as I thought they were talking about the ground floor of the flats on the corner of Dartmouth Road/Kirkdale.
I agree it would be a shame to see the small (friendly) newsagent suffer. However, personally I hardly ever use this as it is shut by the time I get home from work; so the direct competition for me is the Costcutter. As stated above, being able to get fresh fruit/veg in the area would be very welcome!
Also, this particular part of Kirkdale does need a boost. It is such a shame to see all the closed shops along there so hopefully other businesses may arrive in the area.*
The report does say no additional parking (indeed, it looks like part of the existing parking along Kirkdale will become a loading bay).
Gaz
*Let's see - what else do I want?! - I have 3/4 pubs, an ok chippie, a good Italian, a good Chinese, a good Indian, a decent kebab shop, a decent barbers, a cafe, newsagents, 2 grocery stores, chemist, Jamaican, Pizza, offie, chicken cottage type place, 2 launderettes and a cash point machine.
I think I'd also like to see a butcher, baker and greengrocers (although these are all probably non-starters), nice coffee shop, upmarket bistro, garden centre, flower shop, ooh - a little Argos or Woolies would be handy - and of course, a moon-on-a-stick shop please!
I did hear news of this in the Woodman (or it may have been in Balti King!) the other week, either way 'they' seemed to be happy too due to the anticipated increase in passing trade. Seems I got confused though, as I thought they were talking about the ground floor of the flats on the corner of Dartmouth Road/Kirkdale.
I agree it would be a shame to see the small (friendly) newsagent suffer. However, personally I hardly ever use this as it is shut by the time I get home from work; so the direct competition for me is the Costcutter. As stated above, being able to get fresh fruit/veg in the area would be very welcome!
Also, this particular part of Kirkdale does need a boost. It is such a shame to see all the closed shops along there so hopefully other businesses may arrive in the area.*
The report does say no additional parking (indeed, it looks like part of the existing parking along Kirkdale will become a loading bay).
Gaz
*Let's see - what else do I want?! - I have 3/4 pubs, an ok chippie, a good Italian, a good Chinese, a good Indian, a decent kebab shop, a decent barbers, a cafe, newsagents, 2 grocery stores, chemist, Jamaican, Pizza, offie, chicken cottage type place, 2 launderettes and a cash point machine.
I think I'd also like to see a butcher, baker and greengrocers (although these are all probably non-starters), nice coffee shop, upmarket bistro, garden centre, flower shop, ooh - a little Argos or Woolies would be handy - and of course, a moon-on-a-stick shop please!
Last edited by Gaz on 9 Sep 2008 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
I've had a look at the information available on acolnet, but it's a bit sparse. No elevations and on the planning application form Section 11 Parking is not only blank, but the relevant boxes on the form (which presumably will have been completed) have been cut from the online version!
Generally though, whilst I wish we were getting a lovely variety of sole traders, I welcome (almost) anything that would give this area a lift. After all this used to be Sydenham's High Street for heaven's sake!
I've lived here six years now and I've seen our much needed sub post office close, followed recently by the shop itself. A real loss to the neighbourhood.
Most shops have been empty for the whole time I've lived here. Someone told me this was because quite a lot of them were owned by the same person and it was worth more to him to keep them derelict. I don't know how true this is.
The local CostCutters is absolutely grim. It's really filthy and I've seen the men in the shop wipe their noses with their fingers when restocking the French bread counter. I use it only in emergencies and then not for anything fresh or that can't be wiped clean before I use it!
I do feel though for the gentleman who runs the shop opposite Wells Park Road. I think this will take most of his business. I wonder if we should campaign for Tesco not to be given the right to sell bus passes and do Oyster top ups - a least then the poor man would keep some trade!
Generally though, whilst I wish we were getting a lovely variety of sole traders, I welcome (almost) anything that would give this area a lift. After all this used to be Sydenham's High Street for heaven's sake!
I've lived here six years now and I've seen our much needed sub post office close, followed recently by the shop itself. A real loss to the neighbourhood.
Most shops have been empty for the whole time I've lived here. Someone told me this was because quite a lot of them were owned by the same person and it was worth more to him to keep them derelict. I don't know how true this is.
The local CostCutters is absolutely grim. It's really filthy and I've seen the men in the shop wipe their noses with their fingers when restocking the French bread counter. I use it only in emergencies and then not for anything fresh or that can't be wiped clean before I use it!
I do feel though for the gentleman who runs the shop opposite Wells Park Road. I think this will take most of his business. I wonder if we should campaign for Tesco not to be given the right to sell bus passes and do Oyster top ups - a least then the poor man would keep some trade!
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 13 Jul 2008 12:44
- Location: se20
quote;
I think I'd also like to see a butcher, baker and greengrocers (although these are all probably non-starters), nice coffee shop, upmarket bistro, garden centre, flower shop
Starting from the corner of Dartmouth road/Kirkdale circa 1960
Gina Decor, a general ironmonger and paint shop
A Toy shop
A green grocer
A baker
A tobacconist/sweetshop
A chemist
A butcher, still had the remains of his slaughterhouse out back
A newsagent
antique/junk shop
a launderette.
a print shop
Willow Way
Grocer
sweetshop
Cant remember the rest
On the other side up from the pub
A butcher, still had the remains of his slaughterhouse out back
On the other side up from the pub
Another grocer
a boot mender
A chemist Mott, [later moved over the road]now a restaurant
Bouchers stores, included the sub post office.
A wide variety of other small shops I forget
Funnily enough they shut down with the abolition of retail price maintenace, the one major thing that allowed the likes of the near criminal company T***o to expand to be the monsters they are today.
No it seems you arre considering that the opening of a Tesco is a good thing?
Funny old world, good job it ends tomorrow.
(I to refuse to shop inTesco, have not done so for forty years)
I think I'd also like to see a butcher, baker and greengrocers (although these are all probably non-starters), nice coffee shop, upmarket bistro, garden centre, flower shop
Starting from the corner of Dartmouth road/Kirkdale circa 1960
Gina Decor, a general ironmonger and paint shop
A Toy shop
A green grocer
A baker
A tobacconist/sweetshop
A chemist
A butcher, still had the remains of his slaughterhouse out back
A newsagent
antique/junk shop
a launderette.
a print shop
Willow Way
Grocer
sweetshop
Cant remember the rest
On the other side up from the pub
A butcher, still had the remains of his slaughterhouse out back
On the other side up from the pub
Another grocer
a boot mender
A chemist Mott, [later moved over the road]now a restaurant
Bouchers stores, included the sub post office.
A wide variety of other small shops I forget
Funnily enough they shut down with the abolition of retail price maintenace, the one major thing that allowed the likes of the near criminal company T***o to expand to be the monsters they are today.
No it seems you arre considering that the opening of a Tesco is a good thing?
Funny old world, good job it ends tomorrow.
(I to refuse to shop inTesco, have not done so for forty years)
Good post catscratch
It does seem funny that there is so much of 'support local retailers' etc and call for small independant shops on the forum, yet tescos coming to kirkdale is a good thing??
So which is it......?
small independants...like Rams opposite wells park rd
Or bland generic retail giants...like tescos
'cos really im confused
It does seem funny that there is so much of 'support local retailers' etc and call for small independant shops on the forum, yet tescos coming to kirkdale is a good thing??
So which is it......?
small independants...like Rams opposite wells park rd
Or bland generic retail giants...like tescos
'cos really im confused
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 13 Jul 2008 12:44
- Location: se20
The point is that these small shops disapeared because of lack of support by the locals who thought it was great they could get food cheaper; they did but now, as all us weary willies and cassandras forecast, they have you over a barrel.
Like the HSBC idea, you need to put your money where your mouth is, all of you daily.
Wait till all food supply is in the hands of the big four, you'll know dear food then.
I read somewhere that all food prduction in this country is in the hands of only five major consortiums, unilever etc
I`m off to the allotment to pick the rest of the beans before the world ends tomorrow.
I have put a bet on that it will, got a million to one it will end, I'll be laughing on friday, I'l be the richest bloke in Armageddon.
Like the HSBC idea, you need to put your money where your mouth is, all of you daily.
Wait till all food supply is in the hands of the big four, you'll know dear food then.
I read somewhere that all food prduction in this country is in the hands of only five major consortiums, unilever etc
I`m off to the allotment to pick the rest of the beans before the world ends tomorrow.
I have put a bet on that it will, got a million to one it will end, I'll be laughing on friday, I'l be the richest bloke in Armageddon.
You know, it's not often I do this (and even less often that I admit it, publicly!) but having slept on it for a night I am doing a backtrack on the whole Tesco issue....
My first thought was great, a major brand are investing in Sydenham, which will help spruce up a very tired looking street and give positive messages to the world about Sydenham's potential.
Having properly reviewed their planning application, considered how I really feel about Tesco, taken on board some people's points about the pros of independant businesses (which in any other situation I would be championing, and I'm seeing the contradiction now), etc, I'm becoming convinced that while development is definitely needed, this is not the right type.
1. I really feel for the little shop opposite Wells Park Road as they will almost certainly go out of business, and they are the best, cleanest & friendliest shop in that section of Kirkdale.
2. Tesco want to take one of the parking bays and turn it into a loading bay. I don't think this is appropriate considering the nature of the road, the closeness of residences, the overall lack of parking on Kirkdale, etc.
3. Tesco propose to be open 7am to 11pm, 7 days a week. I feel for the people who live immediately above it and adjacent as they will have pretty much no respite from any noise and traffic that the store generates.
4. Yes it would be convenient for many people, but it is pretty much smack bang in the middle of Sainsbury's in Forest Hill and Somerfield in Sydenham. That's really not so far to go for fresh produce, and for the bits in between there is the existing shop. Yes a Tesco would be ultra convenient for many, but I'm sure most people can cope with the status quo.
5. Ultimately, I don't want development at any cost. There are many ethical issues with supporting Tesco, and I personally believe it better to wait until the current economic downturn passes, the ELL opens, and focus energy on encouraging good, independant or small chain businesses of verying types to view Sydenham as a viable investment option.
PS Catscratch... as we're all alive I'm guessing you lost your bet. Either that or the scientists have opened some sort of parallel dimension and none of you exist anymore... ????
My first thought was great, a major brand are investing in Sydenham, which will help spruce up a very tired looking street and give positive messages to the world about Sydenham's potential.
Having properly reviewed their planning application, considered how I really feel about Tesco, taken on board some people's points about the pros of independant businesses (which in any other situation I would be championing, and I'm seeing the contradiction now), etc, I'm becoming convinced that while development is definitely needed, this is not the right type.
1. I really feel for the little shop opposite Wells Park Road as they will almost certainly go out of business, and they are the best, cleanest & friendliest shop in that section of Kirkdale.
2. Tesco want to take one of the parking bays and turn it into a loading bay. I don't think this is appropriate considering the nature of the road, the closeness of residences, the overall lack of parking on Kirkdale, etc.
3. Tesco propose to be open 7am to 11pm, 7 days a week. I feel for the people who live immediately above it and adjacent as they will have pretty much no respite from any noise and traffic that the store generates.
4. Yes it would be convenient for many people, but it is pretty much smack bang in the middle of Sainsbury's in Forest Hill and Somerfield in Sydenham. That's really not so far to go for fresh produce, and for the bits in between there is the existing shop. Yes a Tesco would be ultra convenient for many, but I'm sure most people can cope with the status quo.
5. Ultimately, I don't want development at any cost. There are many ethical issues with supporting Tesco, and I personally believe it better to wait until the current economic downturn passes, the ELL opens, and focus energy on encouraging good, independant or small chain businesses of verying types to view Sydenham as a viable investment option.
PS Catscratch... as we're all alive I'm guessing you lost your bet. Either that or the scientists have opened some sort of parallel dimension and none of you exist anymore... ????
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
New Tesco in Kirkdale?
Ram, who owns the newsagent and general store opposite Wells Park Road, is organizing a petition against the new Tesco's. As a loyal customer I have signed it (as have many others, I noted this morning), although I agree with other people who have posted here that the retail environment a bit further up Kirkdale would benefit from some new blood. Ram's shop is a real community focus, and I would hate to see it go under. I wonder whether there would in theory be any scope for ensuring through the planning system that the new Tesco competes with local small businesses only in food (which is where the real need is) rather than in newsagency etc. services?
I'm not sure how much that will help him Robin, has he said anything on the subject? Personally speaking I use his shop for milk, bread, and the occasional other household essentials that I need during the week. It's just a few quid here and there, but these are just the sort of things that people will stop buying from him.
It might be useful to ask him what sort of percentage of his income comes from the newsagent side of his business, so that it's possible to really quantify the effect of Tesco on him and the potential impact of stopping Tesco selling newspapers etc?
It might be useful to ask him what sort of percentage of his income comes from the newsagent side of his business, so that it's possible to really quantify the effect of Tesco on him and the potential impact of stopping Tesco selling newspapers etc?
My name is Mr Ramesh Patel. I have been the owner of Rams convenience store (which is situated at 159 kirkdale, Sydenham). I have had this business since 13th December 1984 i.e. for 24 years. As I’m sure you have already heard, there is to be a Tesco Stored Ltd opening at 139-147 Kirkdale SE26 in other words the ground floor business unit of this address is to be converted into a retail unit.
Firstly, I would like to thank those of you for expressing your concerns on the effect that Tesco will have on my business, I very much appreciate this. Rams convenience store has been the main income for me and my family. Therefore I must express that I do not wish to see one large A1 unit in an area which predominately comprises small independent retailers/business owners, some of whom have had businesses in the area for over twenty years. Any large supermarket operator will undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on local businesses. Personally speaking I feel that there are enough large supermarkets within the Borough and within easy access to accommodate community requirements. As Robin has already stated, I have drawn up a petition which has been handed out to all nearby businesses. If you come across one of these I would be very grateful if you could sign this and support all of us who object to the new Tesco opening.
Firstly, I would like to thank those of you for expressing your concerns on the effect that Tesco will have on my business, I very much appreciate this. Rams convenience store has been the main income for me and my family. Therefore I must express that I do not wish to see one large A1 unit in an area which predominately comprises small independent retailers/business owners, some of whom have had businesses in the area for over twenty years. Any large supermarket operator will undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on local businesses. Personally speaking I feel that there are enough large supermarkets within the Borough and within easy access to accommodate community requirements. As Robin has already stated, I have drawn up a petition which has been handed out to all nearby businesses. If you come across one of these I would be very grateful if you could sign this and support all of us who object to the new Tesco opening.
No one's going to drive to that Tesco, so I can't see what the deal is with "traffic". Besides, it's on a main road.
The Tesco in Crystal Palace and West Dulwich opens till 11 without any problems.
How much "noise" does a shop actually create? Really? What happens if Tesco pulls out, and a local late night takeaway or restaurant decides to bid for the site instead? Be careful what you wish for...
We live in a capitalism country. Competitors adapt or go bust, and that goes for "local shops" too. No retailer has a right to customers.
I really can't understand people's fesish for "independent" retailers. People wear clothes bought in multinational chain stores, drive cars built in Japan, watch progammes made in America on TVs made in Korea.
Therefore, why do they get so dewey-eyed over "local shops". Most of the stuff stocked in the "local" shop is exactly the same as that that sold in tescos, except that it's 25 per cent more expensive.
The Tesco in Crystal Palace and West Dulwich opens till 11 without any problems.
How much "noise" does a shop actually create? Really? What happens if Tesco pulls out, and a local late night takeaway or restaurant decides to bid for the site instead? Be careful what you wish for...
We live in a capitalism country. Competitors adapt or go bust, and that goes for "local shops" too. No retailer has a right to customers.
I really can't understand people's fesish for "independent" retailers. People wear clothes bought in multinational chain stores, drive cars built in Japan, watch progammes made in America on TVs made in Korea.
Therefore, why do they get so dewey-eyed over "local shops". Most of the stuff stocked in the "local" shop is exactly the same as that that sold in tescos, except that it's 25 per cent more expensive.
I just want to comment on dickp's question about how much noise a shop can generate.
I haven't worked in retailing, so I realize I may be shot down by those who have, but ...
My feeling is it's no so much the noise that people make when they're shopping that could be an issue, but the noise made by deliveries and cleaning and staff coming and going outside the opening hours.
I haven't worked in retailing, so I realize I may be shot down by those who have, but ...
My feeling is it's no so much the noise that people make when they're shopping that could be an issue, but the noise made by deliveries and cleaning and staff coming and going outside the opening hours.
All this clamour for 'local' business is so fake it's unbelievable. I wonder how many people on this forum would buy clothes from the 'local' shops like Aksu or the tacky designer place near the hypermarket.
At the end of the day, it's value that customers want and if costcutters or the news agents don't offer if people will go else where.
At the end of the day, it's value that customers want and if costcutters or the news agents don't offer if people will go else where.
Marymck - that's exactly the noise I'm talking about. Not the shop noise, but the noise of deliveries, etc, right outside people's windows. Maybe it's not a realistic concern, it's just something I listed as potentially being an issue with regards to me supporting it.
And fat mike - I'm not sure I see your point. I want to support local businesses, but it's not unconditional support and I don't think anyone is talking about unconditional support, otherwise we'd all be down at the new crappy chicken place wouldn't we?? I for one still demand a certain level of quality before I will support a local or independant business.
Dickp - your statement about most of the stuff in local shops being the same as in tesco - again, I go back to what I said in response to fat mike. If a local shop sells the same stuff but overpriced then I won't use it. However, you do find local shops who sell different products, fresher products due to not buying in such huge quantities, etc. These are the businesses I support. Using Rams as an example, I buy bread from there because they stock different bread to Sainsbury's and it tends to be fresh and nice.
The point to be made is that this is not about blind support, but given the choice and the quality/range of goods, I and many others on here would prefer to support a local and/or independant business over a multinational chain.
And fat mike - I'm not sure I see your point. I want to support local businesses, but it's not unconditional support and I don't think anyone is talking about unconditional support, otherwise we'd all be down at the new crappy chicken place wouldn't we?? I for one still demand a certain level of quality before I will support a local or independant business.
Dickp - your statement about most of the stuff in local shops being the same as in tesco - again, I go back to what I said in response to fat mike. If a local shop sells the same stuff but overpriced then I won't use it. However, you do find local shops who sell different products, fresher products due to not buying in such huge quantities, etc. These are the businesses I support. Using Rams as an example, I buy bread from there because they stock different bread to Sainsbury's and it tends to be fresh and nice.
The point to be made is that this is not about blind support, but given the choice and the quality/range of goods, I and many others on here would prefer to support a local and/or independant business over a multinational chain.
Because this is not my sole concern about the proposal and I need to be convinced that it is right for the location.fat_mike wrote:if yous arguement is about choice then, why object to the Tesco being there. You can still go to your preffered places. And if certain businesses go out of business, then I guess that it's just 'natural selection', those that survive are the ones that can adapt.