Oystergate: Showdown Time

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 22 Jul 2008 13:13

Weeble wrote: I strongly doubt it too - I thought Peter Field from TfL made a very valid point on the video - that Southern and their predecessors had been managing well enough without barriers for years and years until TfL stumped up the cash for installing them, at which point they're suddenly an essential tool in the fight against fare dodgers But that's franchising for you - no incentive to invest...

and that's a point I've made from the start. They just aren't necessery.

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 23 Jul 2008 13:35

This has just been posted on se23.com:

Jim Dowd in parliament:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/? ... 176#g698.2

Jim Dowd MP Wrote:
With change comes difficulty, as everybody knows. New stations are being fitted with the Oyster card system, which has been hugely successful on the underground network and on London buses. Extending it to the national rail network will be to the advantage of passengers throughout the area and the country, wherever it is adopted. Bringing in the Oyster card service means bringing in gates, which is where the current problem exists. There is a plan at Sydenham and Forest Hill stations to introduce over two phases and by the end of this year automatic gates, which will be brought on line while the Southern Trains franchise is still in existence.

Unfortunately, this is causing many of my constituents considerable inconvenience and has made their lives difficult because of restrictions on the up service from Sydenham and the down service from Forest Hill, requiring people to go to the other side of the station and back over footbridge to get to the service they want. For people with buggies or luggage or with mobility difficulties, that is extremely inconvenient. Everybody understands why the new system is being brought in, but it cannot be right to inconvenience the law-abiding and ticket-buying majority in the hope of catching the fare-evading minority. My constituents certainly do not see it that way.

Fortunately, the elected mayor of Lewisham, Sir Steve Bullock, arranged for me and him to meet senior Southern Trains managers at Forest Hill and Sydenham stations last Friday and, more particularly, for the managers to meet a number of constituents—their customers, passengers, or whatever they are called these days—and to hear from them first hand precisely how difficult their lives have been made by the lack of co-ordination in introducing the programme. As I say, nobody disputes the need to reduce fare evasion and to improve security by ensuring that only genuine passengers have access to both trains and stations. My constituents would agree with that proposition.

However, as the full scheme can be implemented by the end of this year, we are asking Southern Trains—it has agreed to consider this—to revert to the original position of unguarded gates until such time as it can bring in the whole scheme. My constituents will then be able to have access to both the up and down platforms at all times of the day with minimum inconvenience. I hope and expect Southern Trains to respond positively in a short space of time.

Great stuff!

Has anyone had any feedback from Southern regarding the barriers and sidegate since the meetings on Friday?

I rang the buzzer for access this morning (8.30) and was informed the sidegate was for disabled persons use only. However, when I started to say, "But according to the conversations we had on Friday with your Director...", the operator opened the gate for me (so partial success there I suppose).

Gaz

randomv · Post by **randomv** » 23 Jul 2008 15:25

I got the generic "thanks for emailing, we'll answer you fully in due course" but nothing since.

This morning I asked the on duty guard if I could get the side gate opened for me in future as I am heavily pregnant and the stairs are killing me! He didn't look too optimistic but told me to try it. Of course I was asking in advance so as to avoid walking round to the Plat 1 gate and being refused. I use a travelcard on Oyster so don't even have an obviously valid ticket to flash. He did point out that the side gate is now manned in the evenings - I've never noticed that though - is it true? Not sure why he was telling me that though - I'd only have to walk over the footbridge to get there!

If it weren't for the fact that I have a slightly better chance of getting a seat on the train from Sydenham, I'd jump on the bus to Forest Hill each morning and get the train from there.

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 23 Jul 2008 15:50

randomv wrote:This morning I asked the on duty guard if I could get the side gate opened for me in future as I am heavily pregnant and the stairs are killing me! He didn't look too optimistic but told me to try it. Of course I was asking in advance so as to avoid walking round to the Plat 1 gate and being refused. I use a travelcard on Oyster so don't even have an obviously valid ticket to flash. He did point out that the side gate is now manned in the evenings - I've never noticed that though - is it true? Not sure why he was telling me that though - I'd only have to walk over the footbridge to get there!

If it weren't for the fact that I have a slightly better chance of getting a seat on the train from Sydenham, I'd jump on the bus to Forest Hill each morning and get the train from there.

To be fair, randomv, you should have no problems whatsover with getting them to open the sidegate in the mornings if you are pregnant.

I also have an Oyster travelcard and held this* up to the gate when the buzzer was answered (and the operator said: "yes, I can see it").

I share your concern about Forest Hill; it would be far less hassle for me to get there, but as you say, you have less chance of a seat once the train arrives...

Good luck!

(*The record card and the old photo ID card in a blue Oyster wallet)

boon · Post by **boon** » 23 Jul 2008 16:03

Gaz wrote: Has anyone had any feedback from Southern regarding the barriers and sidegate since the meetings on Friday?

Indeed, I recall being told that Southern would give details of their intentions to the Mayor's office on Monday, who would then pass it on to the various societies. Has anything come of this?

michael · Post by **michael** » 23 Jul 2008 22:01

I got this information from the Mayor's office today:

We have chased Southern twice already this week for their promised response, and they have assured us that they will send us something by the end of the week.

JCM3000 · Post by **JCM3000** » 23 Jul 2008 23:41

randomv wrote:He did point out that the side gate is now manned in the evenings - I've never noticed that though - is it true?

It was indeed manned (or womanned to be precise) this evening at about 1800.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 24 Jul 2008 08:58

Gaz wrote:I share your concern about Forest Hill; it would be far less hassle for me to get there, but as you say, you have less chance of a seat once the train arrives...

If she is heavily pregnant then I'd expect her to get a seat wherever she gets on!

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 24 Jul 2008 09:23

bensonby wrote:
Gaz wrote:I share your concern about Forest Hill; it would be far less hassle for me to get there, but as you say, you have less chance of a seat once the train arrives...
If she is heavily pregnant then I'd expect her to get a seat wherever she gets on!

Whoops! Of course you are correct (I hope) - I suppose I was talking selfishly about me not getting a seat!

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 24 Jul 2008 10:00

bensonby wrote:
Gaz wrote:I share your concern about Forest Hill; it would be far less hassle for me to get there, but as you say, you have less chance of a seat once the train arrives...
If she is heavily pregnant then I'd expect her to get a seat wherever she gets on!

You'd HOPE so, but it's amazing how engrossed people can get in the Metro when someone pregnant, elderly or disabled gets on!!

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 24 Jul 2008 10:07

The thing to do then is to ask. Occassionally I see someone who is "border line" in the age/pregnant department and feel to embarressed to offer a seat for fear of causing offence.

I've seen some people who look quite old, but perhaps not "old enough"

I've see so many women with a "bit of a belly"

I wouldn't want to upset/offend those people...

I'd be happy to give up my seat for almost anyone who asked me for it - I'd assume that to ask they had a genuine need.

natbeuk · Post by **natbeuk** » 24 Jul 2008 10:21

The pregancy thing I can understand - my boyfriend once asked a woman when she was due.... she wasn't due at all...... so that I understand!

The not old enough thing, I don't get at all. 99% of people will be pleased that you offered, not offended, and will politely turn you down if they are okay standing. Much better to offer and be rejected than have someone standing just because they are too shy to ask for a seat.

It's all very well to say "ask", but asking a random stranger to give up their seat for you is a very intimidating and unappealing prospect for most people!

sean · Post by **sean** » 24 Jul 2008 10:26

If anyone has any problems getting through the side door after pressing the buzzer let me know and we'll set up a camera to record it.

bensonby · Post by **bensonby** » 24 Jul 2008 10:29

natbeuk wrote:The pregancy thing I can understand - my boyfriend once asked a woman when she was due.... she wasn't due at all...... so that I understand!

The not old enough thing, I don't get at all. 99% of people will be pleased that you offered, not offended, and will politely turn you down if they are okay standing. Much better to offer and be rejected than have someone standing just because they are too shy to ask for a seat.

It's all very well to say "ask", but asking a random stranger to give up their seat for you is a very intimidating and unappealing prospect for most people!

don't get me wrong, I offer my seat to elderly people all the time - as and when other seats aren't available. I err on the side of caution too, by not taking a seat on a bus/train if I see elderly people getting on. However, I sometime see people that 2look" quite old (to me) but are perfectly steady on their feet and not carrying anything and think it might be offensive to offer them a seat.

As for being intimidating I can understand to a degree - but 99% of people are only to happy to comply with reasonable requests.

randomv · Post by **randomv** » 24 Jul 2008 10:32

bensonby wrote:
Gaz wrote:I share your concern about Forest Hill; it would be far less hassle for me to get there, but as you say, you have less chance of a seat once the train arrives...
If she is heavily pregnant then I'd expect her to get a seat wherever she gets on!

Unfortunately not! As others have said, it's amazing how engrossed people suddenly find their papers. It's obviously difficult to tell early on but in the later stages there is no confusing a pregnant lady.

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 24 Jul 2008 10:46

sean wrote:If anyone has any problems getting through the side door after pressing the buzzer let me know and we'll set up a camera to record it.

As reported above, the staff are still saying, "These are meant for disabled access only", when you press the buzzer. This of course can make you feel quite pathetic/embarrassed if you have to argue that you have a sore foot/heavy bag etc...

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 24 Jul 2008 11:36

I think we now have no choice but to wait until the end of this week to hear Southern's response.

If they agree to the Steve Bullock/Jim Dowd's request for unguarded gates until the full scheme has been implemented, then we have some breathing space - access to the side gate for everyone (not just those adjudged to be disabled) will not be a problem and the planned new side gate can hopefully proceed through planning and be constructed.

If however, Southern reject the request to "postpone" the scheme, then we have to ask Steve Bullock to push through the scheme for the side gate ASAP - after all, the plan has now been with LBL for over a month. What's the hold-up? We also have to ask John Oliver of Southern to instruct the staff at Sydenham in writing (with a copy to us) the exact criteria to be used when someone presses the buzzer.

Weeble · Post by **Weeble** » 25 Jul 2008 17:01

I'm guessing/hoping that Southern are going through the logistics of sorting out the admin/finances that is required to get a member of staff on the gates here and at Forest Hill.

Given the issue has been raised in parliament now (with such rivetting items on the agenda it is hardly any wonder that most of the time there are only about 3 people in the house and they all appear to be asleep

) I would hope Southern have got to react.

It would be ridiculous of them to refuse the request, given it is only temporarily reverting to an access level they were perfectly happy to provide a few months ago. If it were Southern who had spent the money in installing the barriers you could understand it more, but it wasn't even their investment, it was TfL's!

richpickings · Post by **richpickings** » 27 Jul 2008 10:48

Until we get an answer from Southern I would just like some consistency from the station staff. I have pressed the button a number of times this week, sometimes they open the gate without a word, other times they give me a hard time, telling me I should go round (but do open it nonetheless)

Weeble · Post by **Weeble** » 27 Jul 2008 15:09

richpickings wrote:Until we get an answer from Southern I would just like some consistency from the station staff.

Here here!

After having it opened for me without question earlier in the week, I went round the side gate early on Saturday morning, when I thought the gate would be open as I didn't think the station was manned at that hour. Our exchange went something like:

"Can you open the gate for me please?"
"Do you have a disability or something?"
"I don't actually need to give you a reason"
"You have to use the front gate"
"I know that Southern management have said that no reason needs to be given, so can you open the gate please"
"You have to come round to the front gate"

I gave up at that point and walked around. When I got back to platform 1, I heard a guy in a wheelchair having a conversation via the intercom:

"I'm a wheelchair user....yes, a wheelchair....A WHEELCHAIR"

Whilst I was a bit grumpy about having to double-back and walk around myself, I thought they were really taking the biscuit making this guy explain three times he was in a wheelchair before they allowed him through!!!

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Oystergate: Showdown Time