Sydenham wish list

[syd]

After the success of the Nando's campaign can everyone list their wants for for Sydenham?

Mine are

1. A green Sydenham with lots of planters everywhere. If it looks like someone cares people will have more respect. Since my road has been swept frequently I've noticed less garbage being dropped. I used to find a pint glass or a box of chicken in my front garden on a Sunday!!

2. Local artists should be allowed to put their work on the side of buildings, shop fronts and shutters.

Play nice no insults please

[Likelife]

1. It would be nice to see artwork on the side of the building overlooking the railway bridge now that the billboard has gone.

2. Get good quality flags on the street lights again, similar to Herne Hill.

3. More shops filled - get a new supermarket in the old Budgens, maybe even rebuild it.

4. The Sydenham end of The Waterlink Way be cleaned up and made to look like its worth walking.

5. Kirkdale Green and Alexandra Rec be made into better parks

6. Monthly markets to be made weekly

7. Improve rubbish collection. How does everywhere else survive without dumping bags of rubbish on the street for collection?

8. Do something with Newlands Park Bus Stop

9. Eventually, have 24hr rail services at least on Friday and Saturday nights. Thameslink (same franchise as Southern) is already 24hr 6 days a week. Once London Bridge work is complete, 2 nights a week shouldn't be impossible.

[monkeyarms]

"6. Monthly markets to be made weekly"

Er, I think the monthly market no longer exists and hasn't for a while!

[sherlomi]

Where is Kirkdale Green?

[Steveofsyd]

Bicycle shop
Cheese shop
Pizza Express instead of KFH in the square
Matching awnings on shops (Lee?)
Flags on lampposts (Lee?)
Cinema
Art shop/stationers
Another bakers for variety
M&S

[Likelife]

"6. Monthly markets to be made weekly"

Er, I think the monthly market no longer exists and hasn't for a while!

I always just thought I missed them because I'm often out of town Was it just not successful?

Where is Kirkdale Green?

The little park across the road from the Petrol Station on Kirkdale.

[bag lady]

There's a lovely bike shop on Kirkdale

[monkeyarms]

I always just thought I missed them because I'm often out of town Was it just not successful?

I think it just died a death. I don't think it ever really had the right kind of stalls frankly. That's not a criticism of the stallholders or their products, it's the context. I mean, I bought some delicious macaroons there shortly before Christmas once... they were really lovely, but that's the only time I'd ever want to buy artisan macaroons. I just don't think there was sufficient regular demand for the sort of things that the market sold.

A farmer's market (or similar) is the only thing I can think of that would work as a regular market. Which would need a larger space than the one by Lloyds Bank. At one point in the last few years, I remember someone was looking into the feasibility of putting on a farmer's market in the Dolphin car park. Not sure what happened to that.

[JMLF]

Trying to be functional and mildly realistic rather than personal dreams (comic shop! Board game cafe!) I think the following would be great small changes to Sydenham:
1. Welcome to Sydenham Mural on a wall near the main entrance to the station/high street where the bridge is. If you look at the se23.life forum there are discussions for this to happen with pictures of similar in herne hill, catford etc.

2. A bar or small food venue of sorts. The ex ladbrokes would be a great space/size for something similar to the smaller bars or eateries found in Peckham around the rye for example.

3. A gift shop. Something a little like bunka in forest hill or a host of places in Crystal Palace. The bookshop has some bits and pieces but a shop with nice homeware/gifts. It could be a community based/small vendors shop like pengetout which has a number of different independent creatives selling their wares.

4. Some more street art or community based signposts. E.g.: the street art in Penge I personally think is great and makes some of the roads more interesting/welcoming or the Norwood society blue plaque stickers all round Crystal Palace detailing what or who previously was on shop sites.

[JayB]

Definite priority better public transport as that would increase footfall and make others more willing to come here say to eat or socialise. People won't set up shop for a limited market of older people and a new generation of parents who largely don't go out at night. Young people without children won't locate to an area without good transport for commuting and nights out.
eg Frequent buses ( 5 mins minimum frequency) to Camberwell(in order to change there ) Bakerloo Line to Lower Sydenham and like others, 24 hour trains at weekends.

I would gladly support all other ideas on here but we're not that interested in shopping. Glad to read nothing about Waitrose

Give Lower Sydenham the same priority as the Thorpes, Newland Road etc . Improve the Bell Green development- new signage, remove litter, render and paint paint Sports Direct walls and curtail their nightmarish in-your-face posters. Better transport links from Bell Green to stations- LS,S and Catford.Clean up the sad Bell Green end of the waterlink paid for by the retailers not out of council tax and stop the main cause of the littering. Improve the dreadful road junctions and remove one way at Bell Green, Paint murals instead of the dilapidated hoardings alongside Sainsburys and the one way around to Southend Lane from Perry Hill to Sydenham Road.

[monkeyarms]

Trying to be functional and mildly realistic rather than personal dreams (comic shop! Board game cafe!)

You know Cherry & Ice puts on regular gaming (both boardgame and videogame) evenings?

1. Decent family-friendly pub with good food. At the moment, that niche is being filled for me by the Alexandra. Fingers crossed for the Greyhound.
2. At least one more good eat-in restaurant, with non-erratic opening hours. There really ought to be several more on a high street the length of Sydneham's. And I think this is bound to happen eventually once Brixton and East Dulwich and Crystal Palace run out of unit-space for budding restauranteurs.
3. Some regular live music. Fingers crossed for the Greyhound.
4. A cinema is unrealistic, but a monthly kids movie screening somewhere would be good. Perhaps in the Sydenham Centre. Maybe I should contact Sydenham Film Club about this
5. A deli would be nice. Billings and the health food shop and PFC sort of cover this, to a certain extent, but not really.
6. A mixed secondary school (ie not single-sex)
7. Come to think of it, you could certainly fill a larger unit with another pre- or after-school childcare provider

[Likelife]

I always just thought I missed them because I'm often out of town Was it just not successful?

I think it just died a death. I don't think it ever really had the right kind of stalls frankly. That's not a criticism of the stallholders or their products, it's the context. I mean, I bought some delicious macaroons there shortly before Christmas once... they were really lovely, but that's the only time I'd ever want to buy artisan macaroons. I just don't think there was sufficient regular demand for the sort of things that the market sold.

A farmer's market (or similar) is the only thing I can think of that would work as a regular market. Which would need a larger space than the one by Lloyds Bank. At one point in the last few years, I remember someone was looking into the feasibility of putting on a farmer's market in the Dolphin car park. Not sure what happened to that.

Ah, that's a shame. Love a good Macaroon and Macaron - Paris is heaven for that. I've thought an artisan bakery/cafe would be good for Macarons, biscuits, gelato, continental pastries - different to the Cake Store but I know their needs to be a niche market for such an establishment.

Definite priority better public transport as that would increase footfall and make others more willing to come here say to eat or socialise. People won't set up shop for a limited market of older people and a new generation of parents who largely don't go out at night. Young people without children won't locate to an area without good transport for commuting and nights out.
eg Frequent buses ( 5 mins minimum frequency) to Camberwell(in order to change there ) Bakerloo Line to Lower Sydenham and like others, 24 hour trains at weekends.

I don't really see why we need more frequent buses to Camberwell, the 176 isn't exactly full outside peak hours. I would rather a bus from the high street to Bromley, but TfL told me there isn't the demand (I struggle to believe that if I'm honest, especially when everything seems to go to Croydon). I would have loved the Southern Caterham service to become Thameslink - by their own admission it would be very popular, but they say they can't due to timetabling issues.

Bakerloo Line to Hayes isn't happening. TfL can't justify the cost of spending millions converting a perfectly good railway line into tube operation while other places in the city and country have more pressing transport issues. Southeastern just need to run a better timetable on Sundays both to Lower Sydenham and Penge East/Sydenham Hill.

[JayB]

You are confusing fullness with frequency. A bus does not need to be overcrowded for it to run more frequently or logically each bus would wait until it is entirely full before it eevr went anywhere..
The 176 is no good at all for people living in Lower Sydenham. There is a connecting service- the 356 to forest hill lbut this only runs every 30 mins in the evening so unless you can see one coming it is just as quick to walk. TFL acknowledge there are problems with the 176's reliability and it recently has a new operator- at least they have renewed the fleet which was on its last legs, slow and uncomfortable.

But i am confused by your statements as they don't seem at all borne out by TFL's loading figures or daily experience. I get it home from work -(or the train to catford), from Waterloo at around 10 pm, 3 or 4 nights a week.. I frequently have to stand upstairs, so what please are your definitions of "out of peak hours" as on Saturday at 2.40 am it was completely full as it arrived in Trafalgar Square. Are you going into town frequently and and how often do you catch it?

An additional problem with the 176 service is its slowness due ot the frequent overcrowding and passengers trying to get off the bus at each stop when they can't make their way to the exit and the driver struggling to see it is clear to move off.. Frequently it then stops at Medlar Street to change driver due to the journey length, at worst these changes can take up to 15 minutes which is why we would rather a more frequent service to be able to pick up different onward services in Camberwell.

[Likelife]

You are confusing fullness with frequency. A bus does not need to be overcrowded for it to run more frequently or logically each bus would wait until it is entirely full before it eevr went anywhere..
The 176 is no good at all for people living in Lower Sydenham. There is a connecting service- the 356 to forest hill lbut this only runs every 30 mins in the evening so unless you can see one coming it is just as quick to walk. TFL acknowledge there are problems with the 176's reliability and it recently has a new operator- at least they have renewed the fleet which was on its last legs, slow and uncomfortable.

But i am confused by your statements as they don't seem at all borne out by TFL's loading figures or daily experience. I get it home from work -(or the train to catford), from Waterloo at around 10 pm, 3 or 4 nights a week.. I frequently have to stand upstairs, so what please are your definitions of "out of peak hours" as on Saturday at 2.40 am it was completely full as it arrived in Trafalgar Square. Are you going into town frequently and and how often do you catch it?

An additional problem with the 176 service is its slowness due ot the frequent overcrowding and passengers trying to get off the bus at each stop when they can't make their way to the exit and the driver struggling to see it is clear to move off.. Frequently it then stops at Medlar Street to change driver due to the journey length, at worst these changes can take up to 15 minutes which is why we would rather a more frequent service to be able to pick up different onward services in Camberwell.

You only mentioned frequency and that's what I commented on; I don't use the 176 often into Central - normally I get the train. What I meant is Camberwell isn't the massive choice of destination for someone from Sydenham, and that's why I said Bromley would be more useful. Central to Camberwell is where the major issue is but that's because there are no stations between Elephant and Denmark Hill and the traffic is chaos. Hopefully, if the proposed Thameslink station is built, this will change.

Anyway, I'm not confusing fullness with frequency, I'm comparing usage with other routes. The 176 had 6.9 million passengers last year, 1 million down from two years ago and the first time it's been less than 7 million in at least 6 years. The frequency is a little lower than other major routes, but, the problem is that the 176 is supplemented with the 40 (Dulwich, northwards) and the 197 (Dulwich - southwards). TfL don't want to add to the traffic and pollution problems on these corridors. That, plus the fact that the London bus network is losing money and TfL's budget having a massive black hole, the last thing they are going to demand is more frequent buses on a route losing passengers.

You mention dwell times, that is a problem on all busy routes which can be improved by more frequent buses but only the road isn't full of traffic. Driver changing times are ridiculously long in London - its the only thing I tend to find bus networks outside of London do better (as well as wifi). As for Lower Sydenham, I agree the connections towards central aren't good, nor is the lack of night buses. Extending the 40 here, possibly avoiding Forest Hill could be an idea...

[JayB]

Great idea that had not occurred to me and potentially a much better solution. I sometimes get the 40 bus for part of my journey as it actually covers the same distance quicker than the 176. ( I never mentioned the 176 in my OP by the way)

It is very annoying to people down here that we do not seem to be considered as being in Sydenham at all so often on this forum or we read things like "well the overground trains are great already" when we have a 23 minute walk in rain and snow or an interminable wait for buses to get to the station in the first place, assuming we are not disabled.

In terms of the buses i am not surprised their usage is falling- in north London I see them practically empty.TFL has done everything with its roads to delay them to a snail's pace. The other day the 176 was overtaken by a portly middle aged cyclist going up Dog Kennel Hill!!!! They crawl along everywhere despite there being less road traffic in central London than a decade ago. I only use them because i can't aford to pay a full day travel card to get inot work each day. It comes to something when you see using crappy SouthEastern trains as a treat......

[robbieduncan]

I'm sure the 20mph limit has played it's part too. Although I frequently observe the busses breaking the limit

[leenewham]

Bicycle shop
Matching awnings on shops (Lee?) :Go to Shades, or Radiant blinds for awnings. Around £2500 a shop.
Flags on lampposts (Lee?): Bay media are without question the best at this.

Bunka have just opened another branch in Beckenham, JMLF. We are working with a brilliant gift shop in Ealing called Mooch. It's really busy, despite being in an area with little in the way of aspirational shops. It's a destination, but it is really, really good. They have just opened their second shop. Pengetout in Penge is a great shop that trials local peoples crafts and products, giving them retail experience. But the quality is high and it's well curated. It's run by Retail Revival who I highly recommend.

Lifelike, if you like chocolates and Macaroons, I can recommend one of our clients, Ilze's Chocolat. She's just opening her first shop, but not here. She trained as a chef with Gordon Ramsey then went to Belgium to train as a choclateur. They are the best I've ever tasted. Lovely people too.

I'd love a high street full of businesses run by people who have a passion for what they do, that create businesses that the owners, local community and public at large are proud of being seen in and outside of.

[appletree]

I would love a bus that went from Kirkdale to Lower Sydenham without having to change (ad the 356 is so infrequent).

Also: good baker and greengrocer.

[alywin]

You tend to find that good bakers and greengrocers get forced out by the local supermarket these days, though

7. Improve rubbish collection. How does everywhere else survive without dumping bags of rubbish on the street for collection?

On a fortnightly rubbish collection? This household of 2 usually manages with one of those carrier bags you get from market stalls per fortnight, sometimes 2 if pushed. Oh, and Bromley insists we keep it within our own boundaries - if we left it on the street we'd probably get done for fly-tipping, knowing them.
Or was that not what you meant?

[Pat Trembath]

It does depend on which part of Kirkdale you live, Appletree, but the 202 bus which is quite frequent goes from Kirkdale (bus stop at the bottom of Wells Park Road or in Kirkdale, just beyond Peak Hill) directly to Lower Sydenham and beyond.

In Sydenham Road, Slatters is a long established bakers and Fresh and Fruity a dedicated greengrocer