bensonby wrote:can anyone think of any (legal) direct action that can be taken.
What would happen if the gate accidentally got wedged open? Would staff have to go to 'free' the gate to prevent passengers taking the sensible (and perfectly legal) exit from the station. I'm no legal expert but I do not believe that wedging a gate open is a criminal offense. Should it go to court I believe the passenger would have reasonable grounds due to the safety concerns they had with so many people crowding the bridge and the ticket barrier.
You may fall foul of this byelaw:
9. Stations and railway premises
...
(2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.
(3) No person shall open a barrier or any other gate on the railway except where there is a notice indicating that it may be used by him or with permission from an authorised person.
I doubt a "concern for safety" would particularly wash as, i imagine, the company would hvae done risk assessments &c.
If you happen to be a police constable you could fear a public order incident and judge the barriers/gate to be an "inconvenience" (byelaw 6(8) ) or an article that causes "annoyance" (byelaw 2) and therefore demand that they are opened under threat of arrest and/or removing the staff from the station - I wouldn't like to try and stake anything on it though.
Given the crowding on the bridge I predict an imminent outbreak of gephyrophobia (fear of bridges) in Sydenham which may prevent significant numbers of passengers needing to use the exit at platform 1.
Can somebody provide a guide on pronunciation for all the sufferers on forum so that they can adequately explain their condition to the staff via the intercom?
Just for the record, I know somebody who does suffer from this condition and would not open her eyes whenever we crossed the Forth Road Bridge. It is a real condition and should be taken seriously by railway staff.
My research tells me it is pronounced JEFF-I-RO-FOBIA. Should you be suffering from a sudden fear of bridges I recommend using this word to gain access to platform 1. It might work!
michael wrote:My research tells me it is pronounced JEFF-I-RO-FOBIA. Should you be suffering from a sudden fear of bridges I recommend using this word to gain access to platform 1. It might work!
it may be more straightforward just to claim you had hurt your leg - they's be more inclined to believe you...
I may make a point of walking all the way around to the other side just to do it - I live on the east side of the railway so I don't need the platform 1 gate normally..
I have just been speaking to an officer at Lewisham Council Roads and Transport department. He confirms that Transport for London, who will be taking over the station (next year, I think) are in touch with the council about putting in a gate line on the up platform side. He says the plans are a bit sketchy, but this is good news. It seems a couple of trees may be lost (to be offset with new planting elsewhere, of course...) and consideration given to loss of road space - which I don't think should be a showstopper. Readers of this thread will know of the opposition of some residents of Peak Hill Gardens - and I sympathise with them about their street looking like an ash tray - but I would hope that the overwhelming view of contributors to this thread will support the planning application when it comes.
Tim Lund wrote:I have just been speaking to an officer at Lewisham Council Roads and Transport department. He confirms that Transport for London, who will be taking over the station (next year, I think) are in touch with the council about putting in a gate line on the up platform side. He says the plans are a bit sketchy, but this is good news. It seems a couple of trees may be lost (to be offset with new planting elsewhere, of course...) and consideration given to loss of road space - which I don't think should be a showstopper. Readers of this thread will know of the opposition of some residents of Peak Hill Gardens - and I sympathise with them about their street looking like an ash tray - but I would hope that the overwhelming view of contributors to this thread will support the planning application when it comes.
that's heartening news - but I still fail to see why the only acceptable answer lies in barriers.
I have no particular objection to passing through barriers - but I do have an objection to being detained for several minutes waiting to be forced through a woefully inadequate barrier setup.
It is pathetic that while TfL know that the current solution is not good enough, they are not doing anything to help passengers in Sydenham who could be helped simply by opening the gate until they have found the right solution.
No doubt when TfL put in barriers that do not require buzzer access they will claim this is a great improvement in accessibility. But in reality the situation will only be a return to the days back in May when the gate was permanently open. Since it was TfL that demanded Southern introduce these gates now, they should not get credit for rectifying the situation in 12 months time.
I'm just wondering if anyone has managed to get an official line from Southern on the exact circumstances under which one can request the gate be opened.
I emailed Chris Burchell at Southern but the reply (from Richard Lancaster) failed to answer my query, as it merely stated that "passengers who require step free access to this platform" would be granted access via the gate. Who qualifies - surely a mother with a toddler and a buggy could be said to require step-free access?
I'm mainly interested in the position of buggy-wielding mums, as my missus now can't travel northbound without either a significant pain in the behind or me accompanying her, which is not always possible due to the fact that I have to work.
I would like to add a vote of sympathy for the residents of Spring Hill regarding the litter caused by smokers - I always wondered why they think that the butt left at the end of their smoke is somehow different to "litter" and can acceptably be thrown on the ground.
I also sympathise with the other issues caused by the presence of an entrance to the platform mentioned in previous posts - cars, parking, noise etc. but at the same time, I can't see a solution for the likes of my wife trying to travel northbound from Sydenham.
Anyway - if anyone has got a concrete answer, please post it up!
My experience of problems caused by the locked gate started at 11.30 this morning when, having come over the bridge to get to Platform 1, I met two men who had just got off the train on Platform 1 and who had buzzed to get the gate open. One was standing behind the other, and the front one was clearly not visible to the operator on the other side of the tracks.
The guy at the front clearly had a mobility problem but the operator refused to open the gate directing both to the exit on Platform 2 over the bridge.
When I intervened she said she could not see the front guy but did, after some discussion, agree to open the gate " but only for the man in the blue, not for the one wearing white!" Needless to say both men left the station through the gate on Platform 1.
At Forest Hill the gate on Platform 2 was open at 11.30 am.
On my return journey, there appeared to be one person checking tickets on Platform 2 at Forest Hill. whilst on Platform 2 at Sydenham the staff had to override the system and open the gates to passengers as there was a build up of people trying to exit the station even at 4.45 pm.
Pat Trembath wrote:
When I intervened she said she could not see the front guy but did, after some discussion, agree to open the gate " but only for the man in the blue, not for the one wearing white!" Needless to say both men left the station through the gate on Platform 1.
What a joke, so they expected the other person to walk around if the gate was opened for that time!
I asked at the ticket office this morning for reasons to open the gate. I'm paraphrasing a bit but it was along the lines of 'if we can see your ticket we'll open the gate'. Examples included heavy baggage, sprained ankles, buggies etc. - No specific registered disability required.
Now imagine my surprise when I got home this evening and my wife and daughter, equipped only with their travelcards, turned up at the locked gate mid-morning. Immediately adopting a limp they asked for the gate to be opened - and lo and behold it was.
I'm not saying this will happen to everyone but what was said at the ticket office earlier was definitely put into practice. Or alternatively the person in charge of the gate couldn't resist helping the two most beautiful girls in the world in their hour of need.
Pat Trembath wrote:...the staff had to override the system and open the gates to passengers as there was a build up of people trying to exit the station even at 4.45 pm.
It is a farce, really. The station can't cope with the numbers, and at busy times I think its essential to open the gate.
What I'm suggesting is a simple tactic - most of us have camera phones now (or am I mistaken?)... for those of you that have to suffer this idiocy at rush hour, please take a picture of it and send it to chris.burchell at southernrailway.com, subject "Overcrowding at Sydenham station", with some text to the effect of "Do you really think this is acceptable?"
It may prove as useful as a good old chocolate teapot, but I think starting to badger some of the Southern chaps may be a start. I'm not suggesting anything untoward, just daily reminders that this move to close the gate is rather silly.
It is NOT my imagination. There ARE more Southern staff about on Sydenham Station over the past week.
WHY? To open the gate on Platform 1?
NO, although to be fair, there are staff walking around in two's (off peak - the only time I travel) who are clearing the litter, and hooray for that!
Are the extra staff being employed to stop riots from the disabled unable, without strong arguments, to access the "Step free access on Platform1"? Or perhaps, because Southern has concerns its ticket barrier cannot cope as has already been reported by local residents on this forum, to open the exit gates on Platform 2 when these cannot cope with the numbers of alighting from incoming commuter trains.
NO, THEY ARE NOT
the_raff is right in saying it is time for camera phones to prove what Sydenham Society has been saying obo the rest of us residents - THE SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK. SIGN THE PETITION!!!!!
Last edited by Muddy Waters on 21 Jun 2008 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
To Lambchops - no need to buy a dress if you can borrow one - but that's your personal decision.
Coming back from Croydon earlier today my leg started hurting as the train drew into Sydenham - I thought I'd twisted my ankle somehow. So not feeling able to walk all the way up and down the stairs I rang the bell, flashing my ticket at the same time in the general direction of the camera.
'Please, sir. Might you open the gate for a poorly man with a sore leg?' The response was swift: 'You'll have to come to the front'. 'But my leg hurts'. 'Oh go on then'. The gate opened to the sound of chuckles from the ticket office.
It's been a while since I have posted, so here we go and of course as usual to the point....
I agree with only a few comments on here, that yes to exit the station during busy times with the new gates can take a great deal of time. I agree that Sydenham is not really the right station to house ticket barriers.
However, I do still feel that their is still so much fuss over the closure of the gate. For many years this gate has been closed, so where was all the petitions then? Disabled people and mothers with prams still needed to get to platform 1, but nothing was ever done about it. I have lived in Sydenham all my life and never seen people campaigning about getting the gate open...So why now.......Well.....
It has become more of a convenience since the gate was open and because of this people cannot cope now with the closure of it. I use the station every day for work and at 17 stone (however looking thin lol) yes have to use the bridge...but that's life, just get on with it.
Yes the gate did used to be shut, but things have moved on a lot since years back, years back travelling on trains with a buggy for example was not possible without a lot of difficulty, without even going into how hard it can be for disabled travellers.
Just because things used to be hard in the old days doesnt mean they should be hard now!
Try carrying a buggy and child up across and down that bridge!!
My mother has an arthritic knee and hip...she simply could not get across that bridge either
Passenger numbers are also steadily increasing. A properly run commercial business (you would think) would try to get as many people using their services as possible. To actually restrict access to your services, or at least make it more problematic, is absolutely farcical.
Time moves on and what is, or is not allowed changes. It's Pandora's box - once something is allowed its not easy to then stop it.
I agree that if the gate had never been opened there would not be this conversation going on - but it was and there is.
Also legislation and political commitments have made 'unencumbered' access to public transport an expected 'right'. This wasn't the case a few years back.
Didg FX, I moved here nearly two years ago and that gate has been open during that time, so I don't remember a time it was not there.
Also, maybe there has been an upsurge in the number of people with young children moving to Sydenham or reproducing even in that short time.
I know my elderly neighbours (there are many) have commented on how, including us, at least three families with children under three have moved to our street and others have begun to have kids. There are at least seven familes in my road that use buggies.
DigitalFX wrote:However, I do still feel that their is still so much fuss over the closure of the gate. For many years this gate has been closed, so where was all the petitions then? Disabled people and mothers with prams still needed to get to platform 1, but nothing was ever done about it. I have lived in Sydenham all my life and never seen people campaigning about getting the gate open...So why now.......Well.....
It was my understanding that the Sydenham Society were instrumental in getting the gate open in the first place. So they did put the effort in behind the scenes where it was needed.
- I wouldn't like to try and stake anything on it though.
- I live on the east side of the railway so I don't need the platform 1 gate normally..