sydenham needs an uplifting

[sydenhamboy]

It's a shame reading this. I was a resident of Sydenham for 10 years and although 'gentrification' (for want of a better word) was slow, to the point of sluggish, at times, it still seems the same old problems exist. I now live 'up the gingerline' in Brockley - and although it's a similar area, the rate of 'improvement' seems to be a little more rapid. In the two years since I've been in Brockley the difference I've noticed is that the pattern seems to be (these days) that only 'certain' businesses with a certain 'look' bother to open up (and thrive). The demographic must be pretty similar in Brockly/Forest Hill/Sydenham but Sydenham's businesses seem slower to recognise it/admit to it. So, for example, it's no coincidence that the brilliant café in Mayow Park, the Dolphin, the new wine shop, On The Hoof, Blue Mountain, Trattoria, and the nice butchers/fishmongers have all been a success, while the shabby, crappy ones (continue to) flounder. They'll always be a need and requirement for good, old (fashioned) Sarf Laandon shops to exist, and they'll always have an audience (East Dulwich Brockley and Sydenham are not), but it'll probably take the 'new' Greyhound to kick start a genuine high street renewal vibe. Being stubbornly trapped in the 90s is not the way forward for any zone 2/3 district of London. Good luck Sydders. You can take the boy out of Sydenham etc. etc. ...

[leenewham]

I moved from Brockley to Sydenham!

Brockley has far fewer shops, so any change will be more visible. Brockley is closer to London and was a buzz place. Hilly Fields and telegraph Hill and the schools attracted families. , it's demographic changed very quickly, the shops reflect this. They have quite a tight community amongst the shops too and the new shops that arrived thrived. It also has rows of great housing stock that, at one point, was fairly cheap (these always eventually get loved again). Brockley came from a much lower starting point than Sydenham, so the new businesses could take hold and benefit from the new people coming into the area. I knew from my day that many of those shops were local people.

Sydenham has some of these elements, but the high street is too big, many of the local shops aren't run by locals and it never got bad enough, had enough empty shops etc to completely regenerate (I hate the term gentrification). Any change in Sydenham isn't particularly visible. It will never totally change in the way other areas have. What it's like now is the wy it lill feel, more or less, in 10 years time. Areas like Kirkdale however, will (and already does) look smarter, far quicker than Sydeham Road.

[Ghlpc]

Yes I agree the high street is big, that's why (and I think it's been mentioned before) it's needs for shops to evolve in a cluster or close proximity first.

I have always believed this would start once the greyhound pub is open. With a nandos looking likely to be opposite I think (hope) this will be the start of better shops and ..and then begin to trickle down the high street.

But I honestly don't mind the mix of shops available currently . Yes of course a few more options to eat out in the evening would be nice, as it's a pretty dead place when dark, but the current owners really need to look after their shop fronts a bit more.

Love dilz, blue mountain, dolphin and golden lion, and the charity shops, and Superdrug...

Evening drinks? East Dulwich or Crystal palace...

[Bovine Juice]

The Alex in Penge now does food. It's only just over the border and does great beer too.

[leenewham]

Lots of good stuff happening in Penge, their high street is getting a make over too.

They are getting the uplift! I go there more than Sydenham.

[Ghlpc]

Yes noticed the Alex...will definitely try it soon.

Penge is alright....but better than sydenham? I don't think so. Just a smaller version of our high street tbh.

[Pally]

Lots of good stuff happening in Penge, their high street is getting a make over too.

They are getting the uplift! I go there more than Sydenham.

Penge High St is as big as Sydenham....so, based on previous point about size, how come Penge are managing it but Sydenham struggles on as ever ?

[Steveofsyd]

There is a tendency to be defensive about Sydenham, on this forum. However this has been going on for years snd Sydenham is definitely the poor relation compared to East Dulwich, Beckenham, Crystal Palace, Forest Hill and even now Penge.
I've been here 20 years - I used t live in East Dulwich in the 70's and 80's but bought my first first flat in Forest Hill as it was a nicer area at that time. I then moved to Sydenham as that was nicer still!
Well we have some of the best housing stock and lovely local parks but our high street has moved at a snails pace compared to others.
Hold up your hands and admit it...it's the only way that we can move on at pace.

[Robin Orton]

I think I remember reading on a similar thread some time ago that there were two, possibly related, problems. One was that there isn't a traders' association in Sydenham - I don't know whether unsuccessful attempts have been made to set one up. The second was that the shop landlords (or one particular landlord who owns a lot of Sydenham Road?) were resistant to any 'uplifting' ideas.

[Ghlpc]

Guys I'll take East Dulwich, Beckenham, Crystal Palace and just about Forest Hill above Sydenham....but Penge? No sorry.

I'd like to be enlightened though and am open minded so please feel free to boast Penges superiority over Sydenham...

I too grew up in East Dulwich, and the change of pace was crazy when it took effect. I have lived in Sydenham now for 10 years, and the pace much slower. But a snapshot then compared to now and there has been progress made, no doubt.

[Mayowthorpe]

I think we need to start thinking about what Sydenham has, rather than what it hasn't.

A few decent restaurants.
Some good independent cafes
Limited chains (supermarkets, chemists excluded)
Lovely parks
Great transport links
Close to a range of good schools
A shop to fix your computer
A place to quickly change your tyres
A great cake shop
A store that's great to get balloons for kids parties
A decent butcher
One of Londons best bookstores
A good DIY shop
A top fried chicken shop (Morleys started here)
A solid kebab place
Some half decent pubs
Lovely and varied housing stock
One of the largest Sainsbury's in the country
A Waitrose less than 10mins away (ED can't say that)
A vaping store (here come the hipsters)
PFC
A good wine shop
A decent wine bar
An excellent kids shoe shop
Sydenham Arts Festival
Some good dry cleaners and hairdressers
A diverse community
A safe community

And if you feel like you need somewhere better to shop or go out, we are only 5-10mins from CP, FH and ED ... where you would pay 50% more for the same sized property.

Or you can jump on a train and be 20mins from London Bridge, The West End or East London.

[leenewham]

Lots of good stuff happening in Penge, their high street is getting a make over too.

They are getting the uplift! I go there more than Sydenham.

Penge High St is as big as Sydenham....so, based on previous point about size, how come Penge are managing it but Sydenham struggles on as ever ?

Penge are getting funding for their high street. Their pocket square were are being designed to be more than somewhere for the council to rent out space to Talk talk. I saw the designs and they were impressive.

The shops fronts will get a makeover too. This didn't happen in Sydenham.

Penge has the Penge Tourist board and strong trader representation. Sydenham doesn't, and it's not headed by a local politician, which also makes a difference. It also has other local trader representation.

Those local groups tend to talk to one another. They are proactive. Antic invested in the pub and they had some momentum, the changes happeneing there are clustered together. The new pop-up is really well run and sucessful. I've met many shop owners in Penge and the enthusiasm there is totaly different amonst many of them to Sydenham. Clustering is key. East Dulwich has greasy sppons, takeaways and kebab shop, as well as many charity shops, but they don't dominate. It's a pretty useful and aspirational high street.

[leenewham]

With the greatest respect Mayowthorpe, focusing on what Sydenham has rather than doesn't means more of the same.

We all know there are some great local businesses here and some lovely parks. We know about the transport links.

The OP is about the high street and why it still feels shabby. I know people that live here and NEVER shop in the high street. My next door neighbours yeasr ago (social housing) never shopped here. I knew someone who had lived here for 10 years and said they had never been in ANY shop in the high street.

Surely that's a problem? Surely there is room for improvement?

Look on most local forums and people will moan about thier high street to some degree. Some people moan about successful businesses on this very forum, like the café in Mayow Park or because one serves gluten free cake.

HIgh streets have to compete. Shops need to entice people into them and their neighbours. Sydenham is missing out in part because of how it looks and what it offers. Many businesses have made a real effort. Sugahill, Kirkdale Books, Billings, Trattoria, 161, The Dolphin, Dulwich reclamation etc. But it's so spread out that it's a shame that others don't up their game too.

I love going to the Alexandra nurseries. But they sell nothing I need. They have made a real effort, it feels friendly and local, and I visit because it's anice place to be. Most of what people but are things they want. If it's something they want, it's an emotional decision, it's something they desire. Good looking shops don't have to be expensive! The sign I designed for Billings was a few hundred pounds.

Keeping a shop clean is a good start. Making shops look like they are proud of being in Sydenham should surely be as aspiraton rather than something to dismiss?

[conti16]

conti16: The question always comes back to What Works?

"Nice shops to look at" that people would/could only ever go to at the weekend, let alone buy anything from if they're in Beckenham, Bromley etc, is not really an incentive to set up a 6 or 7-day shop as a business plan. If you think it is, then I freely admit you have better knowledge of what works than I do.

Also, wanting to dilute existing custom by introducing a chain seems an odd desire, as most chains want outright domination. E.g. you want a Caffé Nero although you say you currently "support" On the Hoof, but presumably would desert them if your favoured chain replacement arrived. Is that damning with faint praise? Or who cares about other shops if you get the ones you want instead? I might be being thick, but I don't follow the wisdom of your thinking. Happy for it to be explained to me of course

[conti16]

Hi Leenwham I totally agree with you and after 8 years of living here I am on the point where I would like some changes before thinking of selling up and going to better areas.
The shops don't need to sell expensive stuff and all these shabby shops could start with their signage firstly and make inviting their shops. I go to Billings as the shops since opened looked inviting so now I rather buy fish from them than local supermarkets.
I agree there are some shops made a real effort but yet not enough. Talking to people have been in the area over 40 years I was told that there was a Clark once upon a time and a Cinema.
The community does not need several betting shops or Pound shop, 2 of each would be more than enough.
Same for nails and chicken fried shops. We need more varieties that can serve anyone.
What's with this vape shop??? I agree with you that must be to do with the people in charge and I think the Sydenham society runners.
Somehow makes me feel sad as when I bought here from Forest Hill I really believed in the area and its growth but now I am more like would be a miracle if that happen so I am push of thinking of moving.

[Pally]

Thanks for explaining re Penge, Lee. So Sydenham had money spent on it, pocket squares etc, lots of potential ideas , a market ...and development stopped, despite those opportunities. Traders Association -I'm aware from chatting to some traders that attempts have been made plus feeding into the Sydenham assembly, but unfortunately those I chatted to got a sense of "brick wall" "no listening" "ideas not welcome really" syndrome! I cant comment though on the truth of those impressions.

[JayB]

Did i just read in an oft repeated list on this forum listing things Sydenham has to offer "20 minutes transport to the west end?" Obviously we need to add to our list of attractions "great drugs"

[sydnami]

I think Sydenham has got all of the right ingredients to be a much richer, more vibrant town centre than the myriad comments here suggest we feel it is today. Our transport links, amenities, housing stock and green spaces are as good as anywhere (if not better than places like East Dulwich).

So why do we feel so 'left behind'? Comparing with somewhere like Penge... in the Penge Tourist Board, the area has a real community advocacy group who care about the area and are putting time, effort and creativity into proposing and driving through improvements. Our local councillors seem to have no real desire to drive through any material change. With a c. 1,000 vote lead over the nearest competitor at the last count, why would they worry? The Sydenham Society cares about heritage and protection of our assets.. all important, but not the constructively critical challenge that is needed to achieve the right blend of 'vibrancy' for the whole community.

I don't think there's any shortage of local businesses and entrepreneurs for whom Sydenham is an exciting bet on paper.. A great location with a lot of thoroughfare, and relatively cheap shop rents for Zone 3. What they need is to be shown that somebody cares, and that their investment is a gamble worth taking. How do we fill that gap?

[monkeyarms]

I don't think there's any shortage of local businesses and entrepreneurs for whom Sydenham is an exciting bet on paper.. A great location with a lot of thoroughfare, and relatively cheap shop rents for Zone 3. What they need is to be shown that somebody cares, and that their investment is a gamble worth taking. How do we fill that gap?

I think you'd need a bunch of local residents (someone once mentioned a 'Friends of Sydenham High Street' group) who would keep super up-to-date concerning empty or underused high-street units. The second any commercial unit came up for availability, they would be organised enough to notify and solicit the sort of businesses they wanted to see on the high street.

[leenewham]

I got back from Penge this morning where I shop I met was really excited about the area and are revamping their business because of it. There was a picture of Pengetout on Facebook with local outside talking about his much they liked it. There are lots of posts about the Alexandra pub and how good it is. There is a real sense of optimism there. People are proud of Penge. The artworks that are spreading up aren't to everyones cup of tea, but they make it feel like Penge, and lots of local people like them, with few dissenters. I personally think they are great overall. I've seen groups of people going around Penge to look at them.

There isn't the same sense here. The Penge Tourist board and other groups have worked really well. There is a sense of 'what can we do to make Penge unique and better. Yet I know that when some businesses have opened here, other have objected to planning or people moan about the parking. Sydenham feels like a 'you can't do that here' mentality. a Knock it down, don't park here, don't change this, it's too expensive, we don't want people from North London, it's fine as it is, let's ignore the problems, it's 'vibrant' mentality.

Places change when the people want them to. Penge wants to. West Norwood wants to. Sydenham simply doesn't.

It's a very different mindset.