Hi ,
Apologies to any that saw this previously but i wasn't sure if i sent to the right thread so i'm reposting here .
I'm new to the Forum but i came upon this site and am amazed at the info that's been posted here on the history of the area .For some years i've been researching parts of my family known to have lived in Sydenham and Penge Common circ 1790-1830 and wondered if anyone here on the forum might recollect coming across any of these surnames -Healey,Holland ,Sutton or Allen from any old maps or related to any land documents that might have survived . I know it's a long shot but 'm trying to track down their properties -i have references for Healey and Barnfield in Sydenham and Holland ,Sutton ,Allen on Penge Common .
As this was up to and around the time of the enclosures i especially wondered if any of the above surnames might be recorded on any maps/land records for Sydenham & Penge ?
I realise records from this era are hard to come by but if anyone can offer any help or advice i'd be very grateful.
Old family names /property records
The 1819 Lewisham Enclosure Map shows quite a large parcel of land in the name Allen. Plot No. 34 on the west side of Public Road No. 2. Public Road No. 2 is now the top part of Kirkdale and I think this parcel of land is roughly where Hassocks Close & the surrounding area is now. I haven't got the whole map, but I'll post again if I find any more names.
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Mary, this topic also cropped up at the end of this thread. At least we're giving him the same answers.
Re Old Family Names
Hi Mary ,
Thanks very much for this info i'm sure those must be references to my families - really interesting to find out anything relating to those names in the area around that time . I recently found out the Healey family were associated with a John Forster of Lincolns Inn who i believe from an old reference book also had property in the area , if this is of interest to anyone else .
Have you any clues from the enclosure map about the land size - i'm afraid i don't have a copy unfortunately .
In fact if anyone could let me know where i could obtain copies (if available ) for any of the enclosure maps for the surrounding area i would be very grateful - also perhaps any book recommendations on old Sydenham/Penge ?
Many thanks again .
Thanks very much for this info i'm sure those must be references to my families - really interesting to find out anything relating to those names in the area around that time . I recently found out the Healey family were associated with a John Forster of Lincolns Inn who i believe from an old reference book also had property in the area , if this is of interest to anyone else .
Have you any clues from the enclosure map about the land size - i'm afraid i don't have a copy unfortunately .
In fact if anyone could let me know where i could obtain copies (if available ) for any of the enclosure maps for the surrounding area i would be very grateful - also perhaps any book recommendations on old Sydenham/Penge ?
Many thanks again .
Re Old Family Names
Hi Mary ,
Yes Steve s correct i first posted on another existing thread but reposted on this one - in case it's of interest others i thought it might be useful if i reposted my original followup to Steve's reply here .
"Nando, a person called Healey was awarded land under the Lewisham Enclosure Act; three small plots at Bell Green and a larger plot in the area that was to become part of Wells Park. He might have been Joshua Healey (married to Isabella) who is described as a "gentleman" of Sydenham and died in 1815. His will is held in the National Archives, and should give more information ."
Steve Grindlay -
Thankyou Steve , that info is very intersting as i wasn't aware of the Lewisham Enclosure detail - Joshua Healey is one of the ancestors & families i am researching . I've had the Will for some time which details him as a shareholder in the Croydon Canal Co with an exstensive Estate with properties in Tower Hill , Upper Russell St Bermondsey but unfortunately no real detail on the "Sydenham" property which he evidently owned in the area . However i have a newspaper notice (circ 1827)which makes a reference to a sale of part of his estate which might give a clue - i am not local to the area and do not know if this description would come under Sydenham , perhaps someone here might be able to recognise the locality ?
"A freehold Estate consisting of several dwelling houses & premises containing 5A 3R 25 P of land -situate opposite to Fort Place near the Turnpike , in the Deptford Lower Rd ".
Incidentally - the Isabella Healey you refer to was formally Barnfield -
if this name means anything to historians in the area i'd be very interested to hear from you .
Yes Steve s correct i first posted on another existing thread but reposted on this one - in case it's of interest others i thought it might be useful if i reposted my original followup to Steve's reply here .
"Nando, a person called Healey was awarded land under the Lewisham Enclosure Act; three small plots at Bell Green and a larger plot in the area that was to become part of Wells Park. He might have been Joshua Healey (married to Isabella) who is described as a "gentleman" of Sydenham and died in 1815. His will is held in the National Archives, and should give more information ."
Steve Grindlay -
Thankyou Steve , that info is very intersting as i wasn't aware of the Lewisham Enclosure detail - Joshua Healey is one of the ancestors & families i am researching . I've had the Will for some time which details him as a shareholder in the Croydon Canal Co with an exstensive Estate with properties in Tower Hill , Upper Russell St Bermondsey but unfortunately no real detail on the "Sydenham" property which he evidently owned in the area . However i have a newspaper notice (circ 1827)which makes a reference to a sale of part of his estate which might give a clue - i am not local to the area and do not know if this description would come under Sydenham , perhaps someone here might be able to recognise the locality ?
"A freehold Estate consisting of several dwelling houses & premises containing 5A 3R 25 P of land -situate opposite to Fort Place near the Turnpike , in the Deptford Lower Rd ".
Incidentally - the Isabella Healey you refer to was formally Barnfield -
if this name means anything to historians in the area i'd be very interested to hear from you .
Hi Nando
Sorry to be so long in replying, but I haven't had a chance to log onto the site recently.
This may be too late, as you may have found the information elsewhere, but ...
Plot 34 - Allen - is shown on the map as measuring 11 acres, 3 rods and 7 perches.
Plot 88 - Healey - is shown as 7 acres, 1 rod and 0 perches.
I have just an A3 photocopy of the part of the map relevant to where I live. But you can see the whole thing at the Local Studies Centre in Lewisham Library. If you speak to John Coulter there he will show it to you.
John should also be able to show you the accompanying Enclosure Awards. These will tell you more about the tenants, cost of annual lease, etc.
Hope this helps.
Sorry to be so long in replying, but I haven't had a chance to log onto the site recently.
This may be too late, as you may have found the information elsewhere, but ...
Plot 34 - Allen - is shown on the map as measuring 11 acres, 3 rods and 7 perches.
Plot 88 - Healey - is shown as 7 acres, 1 rod and 0 perches.
I have just an A3 photocopy of the part of the map relevant to where I live. But you can see the whole thing at the Local Studies Centre in Lewisham Library. If you speak to John Coulter there he will show it to you.
John should also be able to show you the accompanying Enclosure Awards. These will tell you more about the tenants, cost of annual lease, etc.
Hope this helps.
Re Old local names
Hi Mary ,
Many thanks for your help - this info is really interesting and i reckon there's a good chance that these plots belonged to my families , though i will have to get more on the records which hopefully should confirm it .
Although i'm down near the south kent coast i'm unable to travel up to the Lewisham archives so i will have to look at hiring a local researcher who can look up the land records there which you mention .
Would you or any others on the forum be able to recommend anyone with reasonable rates as being a pensioner i'm afraid i'd have to keep an eye on the expenses.
Does John Coulter work at the archives - only i've seen his name mentioned on the forum regarding a book ?
I really appreciate your interest in this topic - and if any others on the forum ever recognise any of these names in old local land/property records i'd also love to hear from you .
Regards
Many thanks for your help - this info is really interesting and i reckon there's a good chance that these plots belonged to my families , though i will have to get more on the records which hopefully should confirm it .
Although i'm down near the south kent coast i'm unable to travel up to the Lewisham archives so i will have to look at hiring a local researcher who can look up the land records there which you mention .
Would you or any others on the forum be able to recommend anyone with reasonable rates as being a pensioner i'm afraid i'd have to keep an eye on the expenses.
Does John Coulter work at the archives - only i've seen his name mentioned on the forum regarding a book ?
I really appreciate your interest in this topic - and if any others on the forum ever recognise any of these names in old local land/property records i'd also love to hear from you .
Regards
Hi Nando
Unless you're in a rush, save your cash. I'd be happy to have a look in the Archives for you as soon as I get a chance.
Probably not for the next few weeks though. If that's OK just please let me know what you've already got so that I don't go over old ground.
Obviously I won't be as good or as quick as a professional but all you'd need to reimburse me for would be the cost of any photocopies.
Unless you're in a rush, save your cash. I'd be happy to have a look in the Archives for you as soon as I get a chance.
Probably not for the next few weeks though. If that's OK just please let me know what you've already got so that I don't go over old ground.
Obviously I won't be as good or as quick as a professional but all you'd need to reimburse me for would be the cost of any photocopies.
Re Old local families
Hi Mary ,
Sorry for the delay in this reply - i couldn't get back to the PC until now but i'm extremely grateful for your very kind offer , thankyou very much i really appreciate your help .
I'll look through what i have on the families involved but basically all i have so far on them is from "family history " sources ( Church/Wills etc )
rather than anything regarding land or property records . I know that the Healey family were involved in a lengthy Chancery suit ( 1815-27)
which gave up a description of the Estate in the area but no definite address unfortunately -
"" a freehold Estate consisting of several dwelling houses and premises containing 5 A 3R 25P of land situate opposite to Fort Place , near the Turnpike in the Deptford Lower road " .
I'm not even sure if this description fits with their property in Sydenham but i guess it's in the area - hence my reasons for trying to find references to the name in Enclosure /Land records of the time .
Joshua Healey md Isabella Barnfield so i was also interested if that name appeared locally - but the related families of Sutton , Holland and Allen
are known to have been of penge / penge common during this time also . I have an interesting ref for a property transaction between the Holland family and a Mr J Rose which may have taken place in the mid/late 1820's but again no definite address unfortunately .
Since a Holland md into the Healey family it may be in reference to the Healey Estates which were sold in 1827 but i'm basically interested in finding any references to the names in old local maps/property records especially as this was around the period of the enclosures .
Perhaps if you could let me know nearer the time when you will be visiting Lewisham and in the meantime will recheck through my records on the families ?
Thankyou again .
Sorry for the delay in this reply - i couldn't get back to the PC until now but i'm extremely grateful for your very kind offer , thankyou very much i really appreciate your help .
I'll look through what i have on the families involved but basically all i have so far on them is from "family history " sources ( Church/Wills etc )
rather than anything regarding land or property records . I know that the Healey family were involved in a lengthy Chancery suit ( 1815-27)
which gave up a description of the Estate in the area but no definite address unfortunately -
"" a freehold Estate consisting of several dwelling houses and premises containing 5 A 3R 25P of land situate opposite to Fort Place , near the Turnpike in the Deptford Lower road " .
I'm not even sure if this description fits with their property in Sydenham but i guess it's in the area - hence my reasons for trying to find references to the name in Enclosure /Land records of the time .
Joshua Healey md Isabella Barnfield so i was also interested if that name appeared locally - but the related families of Sutton , Holland and Allen
are known to have been of penge / penge common during this time also . I have an interesting ref for a property transaction between the Holland family and a Mr J Rose which may have taken place in the mid/late 1820's but again no definite address unfortunately .
Since a Holland md into the Healey family it may be in reference to the Healey Estates which were sold in 1827 but i'm basically interested in finding any references to the names in old local maps/property records especially as this was around the period of the enclosures .
Perhaps if you could let me know nearer the time when you will be visiting Lewisham and in the meantime will recheck through my records on the families ?
Thankyou again .
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Nando, it might be worth emailing local studies at local.studies@lewisham.gov.uk. I know they are prepared to deal with email (and phone) enquiries, although nothing beats a personal visit. I'm pretty sure they can clear up the location of "Fort Place" near the Deptford turnpike (this is definitely not Sydenham, it is in the Deptford/New Cross area). Also, most of their archives are now available online; you can search or browse them them here.
For information on Penge you would have to approach Bromley Local Studies
For information on Penge you would have to approach Bromley Local Studies
Re Old local families
Hi Steve ,
Thankyou very much for that info and advice i will certainly follow it up and see if they can help with any references . I'm really interested in your thoughts on the location of the Fort Place property as i begin to wonder if Joshua Healey held another property in the Sydenham area which was not amongst those sold at auction in 1827 .
Is it possible the Deptford /New Cross area was near enough for Joshua Healey to have been described as " gentleman of Sydenham " ?
If this is not really likely then i'll have to think again about further Healey properties locally .
Thanks again .
Thankyou very much for that info and advice i will certainly follow it up and see if they can help with any references . I'm really interested in your thoughts on the location of the Fort Place property as i begin to wonder if Joshua Healey held another property in the Sydenham area which was not amongst those sold at auction in 1827 .
Is it possible the Deptford /New Cross area was near enough for Joshua Healey to have been described as " gentleman of Sydenham " ?
If this is not really likely then i'll have to think again about further Healey properties locally .
Thanks again .
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Nando, I've just come across this, which might be of interest. It is from a book of inscriptions from St Mary's Churchyard, Lewisham, published in 1889.
Even if the tomb still survives it is unlikely that it will still be legible. At the time of Joshua's death St Mary's was the parish church for the whole of Lewisham; there was still no Sydenham church.In memory of Mr Joshua HEALEY of Sydenham who departed this life 27 December 1814 aged 50 years. Affliction sore long time I bore physicians were in vain Till God did please that Death should seize and ease me of my pain.
Also Christina relict of Joshua Healey who died 13 April 1815 aged 81 years.
In memory of Mr Joshua Healey late of the Parish of St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey who died December 12th 1789 aged 60 years. Weep not my friends and children dear I am not Dead but sleeping here Untill the Almighty God alone Doth call me to his Heavenly Throne.
Here lieth the body of Mr David Healey woolstapler who departed this life the 11th of October 1799 aged 21 years.
Re Old property records
Hi Steve ,
Thankyou very much for that - it's certainly of interest and definitely my family - it begins to look like the Healey family were in the area
(Deptford/Sydenham ) further back than i first thought as this inscription seems to imply Joshua Healey Snr was buried locally despite the family links to Bermondsey . In fact this might tie in with the latest info which describes the local Healey property as "Gavelkind" which by my dictionary means a property left to & shared between more than one heir ie; sons .
Although wikipedia seems to suggest that Gavelkind was a system of Land tenure peculiar to Kent - either way it may mean the family were in the area for longer period so i will look into that .
Many thanks again - all very interesting ....
Regards
Thankyou very much for that - it's certainly of interest and definitely my family - it begins to look like the Healey family were in the area
(Deptford/Sydenham ) further back than i first thought as this inscription seems to imply Joshua Healey Snr was buried locally despite the family links to Bermondsey . In fact this might tie in with the latest info which describes the local Healey property as "Gavelkind" which by my dictionary means a property left to & shared between more than one heir ie; sons .
Although wikipedia seems to suggest that Gavelkind was a system of Land tenure peculiar to Kent - either way it may mean the family were in the area for longer period so i will look into that .
Many thanks again - all very interesting ....
Regards
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RileyDescendant
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 6 Nov 2008 20:56
- Location: Bath
Healey of Sydenham
Healey of Sydenham
Joshua Healey born abt 1729 Married 11 October 1760 at St Olave Southwark to Christian Hobson dau of Henry and Penelope
she was born abt 1725 and had a brother Henry born abt 1731
Joshua died 12 Dec 1789 Buried Lewisham MI
Christian remarried to widower Jeremiah Riley Woolstapler of Bermondsey who died 23 May 1800 and was buried at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey MI to Jeremiah and other members of Riley family in church.
Christian died 13 April 1815 and was buried at Lewisham with MI as Christian Healey
Children of Joshua Healey and Christian
Christian(2) bn 9 November 1761 Married 1 Robert King, 2 James Riley(see below)
Joshua(2) bn abt 1764 married Isabella Barnfield 25 Aug 1801 St Giles Camberwell
David bn abt 1778 died 11 Oct 1799 Buried St Mary Lewisham on family MI Occ Woolstapler
Marriage unknown but had a daughter
Elizabeth Artemisia Anna Maria mentioned in his PCC will. She married Henry Webb 13 December 1819 St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey
Joshua(2) of Sydenham and Isabella had 6 children
Sarah bn by 1804
Ann bn by 1804
Joshua(3) bn 3 September 1801
James David bn 1 January 1803
William bn 9 February 1804
Elizabeth bn 20 September 1805
Joshua(2) died 27 Dec 1814
Jeremiah Riley of Bermondsey had two children by his first wife Mary who died in Bermondsey 24 November 1789
James Riley born 15 June 1764 married Christian(2) Healey 26 June 1794 Bermondsey, Surrey following the death of her first husband Robert King who she married 9 November 1784 St Dunstan in The East, London
Christian died at Harrogate 19 August 1837 see MI in St Mary Magdalen to James Christian and their eldest son James(2)
James Riley was an important Bermondsey Woolstapler. He purchased Abbey House in Bermondsey. James went into partnership with the Brook brothers of Huddersfield who also had interests in Banking and Cotton Spinning as well as Woolstapling (Brooks Cotton were much later absorbed by Coats Viyella) and the business went international. Riley Road which follows the line of the carriagedrive is named after him.
Children of James Riley and Christian
James (2) ran the Bermondsey side of the business died of a hunting accident in Paris
Ann Christiana
Mary
Jeremiah(2) went to run the Huddersfield side of the business with his father in law, retired to Bath where he died
Joshua Healey ran the continental side of the business in Prussia and retired to Cheltenham where he died
Eliza
This continues as the story of the Riley and Brook families in Britain, Germany and Australia and includes the Australian pioneer James Riley(3)
Ann Riley married George Webb Wine merchant of East Cheap
Joshua Healey born abt 1729 Married 11 October 1760 at St Olave Southwark to Christian Hobson dau of Henry and Penelope
she was born abt 1725 and had a brother Henry born abt 1731
Joshua died 12 Dec 1789 Buried Lewisham MI
Christian remarried to widower Jeremiah Riley Woolstapler of Bermondsey who died 23 May 1800 and was buried at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey MI to Jeremiah and other members of Riley family in church.
Christian died 13 April 1815 and was buried at Lewisham with MI as Christian Healey
Children of Joshua Healey and Christian
Christian(2) bn 9 November 1761 Married 1 Robert King, 2 James Riley(see below)
Joshua(2) bn abt 1764 married Isabella Barnfield 25 Aug 1801 St Giles Camberwell
David bn abt 1778 died 11 Oct 1799 Buried St Mary Lewisham on family MI Occ Woolstapler
Marriage unknown but had a daughter
Elizabeth Artemisia Anna Maria mentioned in his PCC will. She married Henry Webb 13 December 1819 St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey
Joshua(2) of Sydenham and Isabella had 6 children
Sarah bn by 1804
Ann bn by 1804
Joshua(3) bn 3 September 1801
James David bn 1 January 1803
William bn 9 February 1804
Elizabeth bn 20 September 1805
Joshua(2) died 27 Dec 1814
Jeremiah Riley of Bermondsey had two children by his first wife Mary who died in Bermondsey 24 November 1789
James Riley born 15 June 1764 married Christian(2) Healey 26 June 1794 Bermondsey, Surrey following the death of her first husband Robert King who she married 9 November 1784 St Dunstan in The East, London
Christian died at Harrogate 19 August 1837 see MI in St Mary Magdalen to James Christian and their eldest son James(2)
James Riley was an important Bermondsey Woolstapler. He purchased Abbey House in Bermondsey. James went into partnership with the Brook brothers of Huddersfield who also had interests in Banking and Cotton Spinning as well as Woolstapling (Brooks Cotton were much later absorbed by Coats Viyella) and the business went international. Riley Road which follows the line of the carriagedrive is named after him.
Children of James Riley and Christian
James (2) ran the Bermondsey side of the business died of a hunting accident in Paris
Ann Christiana
Mary
Jeremiah(2) went to run the Huddersfield side of the business with his father in law, retired to Bath where he died
Joshua Healey ran the continental side of the business in Prussia and retired to Cheltenham where he died
Eliza
This continues as the story of the Riley and Brook families in Britain, Germany and Australia and includes the Australian pioneer James Riley(3)
Ann Riley married George Webb Wine merchant of East Cheap
Re: Old family names /property records
Hello,
I have stumbled across this site when googling "Christian Healey" and see that there are several of you interested in teh same families! I note all the msgs to do with this thread are dated 2008, so I hope this reaches some of you who were chatting on the HEALEY/RILEY topic (Nando, Mary, Steve Grindlay, RileyDescendant).
I would love to know if you got to the bottom of the property queries regarding Joshua Healey and the chancery case? Also, I would like to get in touch with RileyDescendant as I am tonight drawing up a large tree with RILEY/MAURICE/GILLAM/KIFT families who are all connected to research I have been doing on the CLARKE families in Bristol. I have a word document which holds most of my information on these families and also documents to back it up ie wills, marriage certs. I woudl be happy to email it through to any of you if it would help you, and also seek further additional information from you to boost my records.
Hopefully I will get at least one reply!!!
Regards, Amanda, Christchruch, NZ
I have stumbled across this site when googling "Christian Healey" and see that there are several of you interested in teh same families! I note all the msgs to do with this thread are dated 2008, so I hope this reaches some of you who were chatting on the HEALEY/RILEY topic (Nando, Mary, Steve Grindlay, RileyDescendant).
I would love to know if you got to the bottom of the property queries regarding Joshua Healey and the chancery case? Also, I would like to get in touch with RileyDescendant as I am tonight drawing up a large tree with RILEY/MAURICE/GILLAM/KIFT families who are all connected to research I have been doing on the CLARKE families in Bristol. I have a word document which holds most of my information on these families and also documents to back it up ie wills, marriage certs. I woudl be happy to email it through to any of you if it would help you, and also seek further additional information from you to boost my records.
Hopefully I will get at least one reply!!!
Regards, Amanda, Christchruch, NZ