Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

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Robin Orton
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

mosy wrote: Re "yet": How can one suddenly believe something in which they never have believed? I wholly accept they might come to acknowledge the wisdom of teachings on how best to live one's life, but that's not the same thing. I would see it as totally hypocritical to "be converted" if just trying to keep one's options open "just in case". Certainly wouldn't be pure of heart by any stretch of the imagination.
Not sure what you're saying here. Aren't we all from time to time persuaded (not necessarily suddenly) to believe something which we didn't believe previously? Why would that be hypocritical or amount to 'trying to keep one's options open'?

'To guilt' sounds a useful verb - thank you for introducing me to it.
mosy
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by mosy »

Robin Orton wrote: Not sure what you're saying here. Aren't we all from time to time persuaded (not necessarily suddenly) to believe something which we didn't believe previously?
Hmm. I'm not persuaded without evidence. Maybe some are.
Why would that be hypocritical or amount to 'trying to keep one's options open'?
It wouldn't be if someone truly did come to believe, however or whatever might have brought that about. On the other hand, it's not unknown for people to lie (even to themselves, our brains being a mystery of their own) if a benefit from doing so (or later repentance/forgiveness) might be expected to ensue if they did indeed arrive at the gate.
Robin Orton
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

mosy wrote: Hmm. I'm not persuaded without evidence.
Me neither, although I guess not everyone would agree about what might count as evidence.
Tim Lund
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Tim Lund »

Robin Orton wrote:I had an interesting and encouraging afternoon yesterday participating, without about 150 (guess) other people in an inter-faith walk for peace through the rainy street of central Lewisham. We started at the synagogue off Bromley Road, and visited the civic centre, a mosque (where we were all given lunch), a church (Methodist) and a Hindu temple (the incredible Sivan Temple, with the exterior totally covered with statues of Hindu gods, many with the heads of animals.) There was also a Sikh leader and a humanist representative on the walk, as well as Sir Steve, Heidi Alexander MP, and the newly-appointed police commander for Lewisham borough, Kate Halpin. The event was organised by the police in consultation with a group of Lewisham faith leaders.

Everyone was incredibly friendly and relaxed, and I felt quite proud to live in a borough which seemed to be doing well in encouraging tolerant and constructive relationships between faith communities. The only slightly uneasy moment (for me ) was my own fault; I imprudently asked a Muslim man how he felt about seeing a picture of a holy person (Jesus) in a place of worship (a stained glass window in the Methodist Church.) He started to lecture me, politely but quite fiercely, about idolatry. I mumbled my excuses and moved away.
Just as a matter of interest, were any of the local faith and community leaders involved in this event among those referred to here by the Hon Mr. Justice Haddon-Cave?
These testimonials were from the following figures. First, Chief Inspector Graham Price of the Lewisham Police spoke of the Claimant’s work with the local police. He described the Claimant’s objection to the Government’s PREVENT programme as ‘principled’ (see further below). He said he believed the Claimant to be a valuable contact for Lewisham police who is actively involved in the local community and a well-known local figure within partnership circles. Second, Reverend David Rome of the Catford and Bromley Synagogue spoke of the Claimant’s significant inter-faith work. Third, Father Charles Pickstone, vicar of St Laurence Church, Catford, said that to the best of his knowledge the Claimant adhered to and taught to others a moral code that seems entirely ‘unimpeachable’. Fourth, Reverend Malcolm Hancock, who headed up the Chaplaincy Department at the Lewisham and Greenwich NHS Trust, said that the Claimant had played a key role in fostering good multi-faith and multicultural relationships and said that he could not imagine the Claimant inciting anyone to act in a way that would be considered irresponsible or a threat to the wider community. Fifth, Dinah Griffith, former chair of the Lewisham SACRE, spoke of the Claimant’s valuable work with different schools. Sixth, Gerald Rose, a retired schoolteacher, also spoke of the Claimant’s valuable work with different schools, including Jewish schools. Seventh, Peter Brierely, the lead organiser for South London Citizens, said that the Claimant was ‘passionate’ about ensuring that the Mosque and young Muslims were integrated into British life. He said that he had never heard the Claimant espouse extremism. On the contrary, he had heard the Claimant speak against radicalisation, isolationism and extremism. Eighth, Simon Marks, a teacher and community and charity worker in Lewisham, said that the Claimant and the LIC shared his belief and passion in creating an inclusive community for young people in Lewisham
And would you now, and perhaps some of those faith and community leaders, accept the judgement in this case that the Imam of the Lewisham Islamic centre is an extremist:
The Hon Mr. Justice Haddon-Cave wrote:In my view, the Claimant’s ostensible cloak of respectability is likely to have made his (extremist) message in these speeches all the more compelling and seductive to his audiences. For this reason, therefore, his messages would have been all the more effective and dangerous.
If so, does this make any difference to future local ecumenical events?

Source here
Robin Orton
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

I don't know. I expect that those, for example, who advise the police on organising the annual Lewisham inter-faith walk will want to reflect on this case. I see the Lewisham Islamic Centre have put out a statement about it. (Can't make the link work, but go to their website.)

There is always a balance to be struck in inter-faith or ecumenical (not the same thing, incidentally) relations. Everyone wants, understandably, to put more emphasis on what unites the parties than on what divides them. But that leaves a risk that serious disagreements will be swept under the carpet. Different faiths or denominations (including groups of atheists, humanists, etc) should clearly work together in a friendly and cooperative way when they can. But they also need to acknowledge and talk about their differences - often difficult, as I said before, when one is dealing with Muslims fundamentalists like the Salafists (such as, I now discover, Imam Begg) who sometimes tend to argue in a pre-critical way and treat the sacred texts (or their particular interpretation of them) as unchallengeable axioms. The inter-faith walk concentrates more or less exclusively on cooperation and friendship rather then dialogue - perhaps that produces something of an imbalance that it is difficult to correct at the purely local level.
Tim Lund
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Tim Lund »

So will you still be helping weave the tangled cloth of the cloak of respectability sported by Imam Begg? Will you be more resolute in asking awkward questions, or will you retreat into the comfort of sneering at those who do try?
Robin Orton
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

I'm surprised you didn't also ask whether I have stopped beating my wife yet, Tim.
Nigel
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Nigel »

Tim
It's one of the reasons I utterly reject terms like " diversity " - unless the original poster is implying we should celebrate violent extremism , alongside Buddhism and my own particular faith of Life is Beautifully Meaningless .
On a good day I smile upon well-behaved and harmless religions and cults but I would not even come close to celebrating them .
A very good evening
Nigel
Robin Orton
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

Oh no, it's that elderly community care user from the Town Pub. Who let him in?
Nigel
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Nigel »

Tim
It's hard to decipher through his frappachinolatte with marshmallows but it sounded like yes no and yes .
I Begged his pardon and left to avoid boring anyone .
A very evening
Nigel
Robin Orton
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Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
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Re: Celebrating religious diversity in Lewisham

Post by Robin Orton »

'Frappachinolatte with marshmallows' ? Is that a witty barb of some sort? I don't even understand his insults.

However, I shall keep silent. I have a feeling that the management are about to throw us both out as a pair of geriatric troublemakers.
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