Southern Timetable Consultation

[Pally]

[quote="Sydenham Syd"]Hang on, all the statements on here sound a bit like we are resigned to this change and that it can't be challenged?

I thought there was a consultation, hence the title of the post.

Stuart seems to have a good grasp of it, and forgive me for not, but would it be sensible to stick a white paper of some sort online and get loads of signatures for it, or is that still not going to work?

Surely we can bully the bullies to back down on the basis of some pretty robust argument

I'm not resigned to this change! I still think the lack of consideration of disabled is a clear reason for challenge and will be responding to that consultation accordingly!

[The Clown]

HI

If someone could make it easy for me - i.e. cut and paste "this" and post / send "here" - I would happily do so.
Link to Gatwick is one of the reasons I bought in Sydenham
I use the London Bridge Services and am frustrated a the increased wait time already.
I am also frustrated at the London Bridge design for making the jump to the Charing Cross line slow and "clunky" (why do you have to walk all the way round?)
I'm not excited about travelling to East London - I want to get in and out of the Square Mile and C. London with ease and speed.

[parker]

HI

If someone could make it easy for me - i.e. cut and paste "this" and post / send "here" - I would happily do so.
Link to Gatwick is one of the reasons I bought in Sydenham
I use the London Bridge Services and am frustrated a the increased wait time already.
I am also frustrated at the London Bridge design for making the jump to the Charing Cross line slow and "clunky" (why do you have to walk all the way round?)
I'm not excited about travelling to East London - I want to get in and out of the Square Mile and C. London with ease and speed.

Agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Likelife]

H Why is it we're lumbered with so many trains to Highbury & Islington and West Croydon that have hardly any seats and are slow as f***? We've lost trains to Charing Cross and now possibly losing trains to EAST CROYDON!

Additionally, our services to London Bridge are more important than Highbury & Islington and Canada Water.

Do you have any evidence for your assertions?

The trains to LBG are good for the Northern Line or Nat Rail connections. However if you are going to use the Jubillee to connect to central and west London it is, on average, faster and cheaper to go via Canada Water. For Canary Wharf and the east it is no contest.

The bottleneck during rush hours on the down escalator at CW is an issue for the next 18 months. Then we get Crossrail at Whitechapel giving even faster ways to go west - and east. That will change the horizons again for London bound Sydenhamites.

I agree on the East Croydon question. I can understand that if you use the Tattenham Corner or Caterham trains then it is dreadfully slow having to stop at every station to LBG is a pain. Making them fast from EC is great. The problem with EC is while it is a great gateway to the south it has no terminal/turning facility for local trains from the north.

It is a dreadful shame they did not use the land now being redeveloped on the west side of the station and the existing West Croydon flyover to cross the through lines and add an extra line and platforms to switch southbound locals to a couple of new terminal platforms on the west side. This would have made a great and better terminus for a shuttle service for both Southern and Overground northwards without impacting through trains.

Putting more terminating trains into West Croydon is also an issue. I've seen bad congestion and delays caused when earlier delays have got trains out of sequence.

Bottom line is Norwood Junction is not a viable interchange station for the frail and mobility challenged. Just think of all the effort they went to make EC step free.

Stuart

Stuart, I simply don't think it is necessary we have more trains for Overground than LB, I've never seen the necessity for this fixation we're supposed to have had all this time applauding the number of trains heading all the way to Highbury and Islington with menial connections on the route to other tube lines other than Jubilee.

There are far more reasons to want a connection to the West End via Jubilee line or Charing Cross than say needing to go eastbound 2 stops earlier for Canada Water to go as far as bloomin' Westfield Stratford.

The greatest thing about Overground is there are more than enough handle bars above your head to tie a noose when you're at the end of your tether when it's taken nearly 20 minutes to get as far as Brockley of a morning due to the lack of other services into the hub stations we once had better access to, namely LB, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Common sense should have been Canada Water was also not a viable interchanging station if they were unable to deal with the short platforms and bottleneck at the top of the escalator as the gate way eastbound AND west.

I wholeheartedly agree. Canada Water is one of the most crowded interchanges on the rail network and will only get worse. Once Westfield Croydon opens I doubt as many people from here will bother going Stratford.

[Likelife]

HI

If someone could make it easy for me - i.e. cut and paste "this" and post / send "here" - I would happily do so.
Link to Gatwick is one of the reasons I bought in Sydenham
I use the London Bridge Services and am frustrated a the increased wait time already.
I am also frustrated at the London Bridge design for making the jump to the Charing Cross line slow and "clunky" (why do you have to walk all the way round?)
I'm not excited about travelling to East London - I want to get in and out of the Square Mile and C. London with ease and speed.

They've made it a bit difficult to do that. They've chucked the whole timetable plan for GTR in one document. The plan for Sydenham line is shown as this:

Route SN3.1:
London Victoria – Balham – Streatham Hill – Crystal Palace – London
Bridge (half hourly)
Serving: London Victoria, Battersea Park, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham,
Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Sydenham, Forest Hill, Honor Oak Park,
Brockley, New Cross Gate and London Bridge. (page 47)

Route SN3.8:
London Bridge – Sydenham – Norwood Junction – West Croydon (half hourly)
Serving: London Bridge, New Cross Gate, Brockley, Honor Oak Park, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge
West, Anerley, Norwood Junction and West Croydon. (page 50)

Southern Metro Routes SN3.1 and SN3.8 combine to provide four trains per hour (Mondays to
Saturdays) between London Bridge and Sydenham

Caterham services may be:
Route SN3.7:
London Bridge – East Croydon – Purley – Caterham and Tattenham
Corner
Serving: London Bridge, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks and Purley. At Purley these trains
will divide. Generally the front five carriages will continue to Caterham serving Kenley, Whyteleafe,
Whyteleafe South and Caterham. The rear five carriages will continue to Tattenham Corner calling at
Reedham, Coulsdon Town, Woodmansterne, Chipstead, Kingswood, Tadworth and Tattenham Corner. (page 50)

Route SN3.10 / SN3.10A:
London Bridge – Peckham Rye – Tulse Hill – Streatham – Norbury –
Selhurst then
East Croydon – Purley – Caterham (Route 3.10)
or
West Croydon (Route 3.10A)
Serving: London Bridge, South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich,
North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath and Selhurst then
East Croydon, Purley, Kenley, Whyteleafe, Whyteleafe South and Caterham (Route 3.10) or West
Croydon (Route 3.10A). (page 51)

Meaning Crystal Palace might get Caterham via East Croydon and Peckham Rye services in the daytime and evening (Mon-Sat).

There are only two ways they have provided to give feedback. One is through the online survey. You can answer whichever questions you want and ignore the others.

The second is the "meet the managers in-charge of Southern" session at London Victoria on Thursday 13 October at 07:30 - 09:30 and at London Bridge on Thursday 10 November at the same time.

I'm sure they will have to take feedback in other forms also.

[alywin]

It's not as if you can necessarily interchange at NJ easily either: I've been caught several times by one train coming in on the far platform while the other one is on the central one (sorry, platform nos. at NJ always confuse me because of the double-sided Platform 3).

[appletree]

My husband and I use the Highbury and Islington service daily. Don't judge what is needed only by what *you* need.

[Sydenham Syd]

My husband and I use the Highbury and Islington service daily. Don't judge what is needed only by what *you* need.

Eh?

[Likelife]

My husband and I use the Highbury and Islington service daily. Don't judge what is needed only by what *you* need.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean we need more than double the number of Southern services at expense of Southern/Thameslink. 10 LO trains per hour and 4 Southern with none to East Croydon doesn't seem like a good compromise.

[newcrosslad]

The loss of direct link to East Croydon is ridiculous, given the number of people using it.
The fast link from New Cross Gate to Norwood Junction and East Croydon is busy every morning. The figures of passengers affected is questionable in that context. Even the late evening journeys disgorge a fair few passenger from East Croydon (or further south) getting off at NXG.
Then the also plan to remove the stopping service via New Cross Gate, Brockley and all stops to East Croydon and onwards to Purley and Caterham. Madness.
Everyone should make sure they make their views known on the consultation survey
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2018ti ... nsultation

[michael]

but that doesn't mean we need more than double the number of Southern services at expense of Southern/Thameslink. 10 LO trains per hour and 4 Southern with none to East Croydon doesn't seem like a good compromise.

Especially when you consider that the Southern trains are twice as long Overground trains, and with lots more seats.

[parker]

My husband and I use the Highbury and Islington service daily. Don't judge what is needed only by what *you* need.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean we need more than double the number of Southern services at expense of Southern/Thameslink. 10 LO trains per hour and 4 Southern with none to East Croydon doesn't seem like a good compromise.

*you*, hope you use your 10 an hour trains to Highbury & Islington and are happier than the rest of us for it. You're probably the only ones using the service past Canada Water anyway.

[stuart]

*you*, hope you use your 10 an hour trains to Highbury & Islington and are happier than the rest of us for it. You're probably the only ones using the service past Canada Water anyway.

I use the services at random times in the day (rush hour/non-rush hour). I find the LO at least as crowded as Southern. Can you not see the opening of CrossRail will make Whitechapel (which is well beyond CW) a much more attractive interchange and will increase LO demand even more? Oh and take the pressure off CW.

Which means we will desperately need the extra two LO services on our line - the capacity of LO is 18 trains/hour and the current usage is 16. That means they have to be terminated either at West Croydon or Crystal Palace. CP has only one terminating platform. WC has a platform and the current siding. If Southern divert to WC we might lose that option. Another reason to keep the current service to EC.

The issue is our need (given that NJ is a grossly unsuitable interchange) is in conflict with the needs of people on the Caterham and Tattenham Corner lines to have a decent LBG service (ie fast from EC). If we can solve that tissue then maybe everone may be happy (or at least not more unhappy).

Stuart

[paddyh]

As well as responses to the consultation it might be good for people who might be seriously affected by the lack of accessibly at Norwood junction to ask southern if they've done an equality impact assessment which I think they should have to do. Basically they should have checked if what they are planning to do will adversely impact protected groups. And so if they will have to justify the reasons which in this case which be tricky.