Middle Class Pubs
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Peak Hillbilly
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 20 May 2005 20:57
- Location: sydenham
I would just like to add a few words having lived for a year in East Dulwich before moving to Sydenham a year ago. While it would be great to have a wider variety of pubs and restaurants, it would be a shame if they became too expensive and effectively excluded a lot of the local population. When the Dartmouth Arms reopened with its new restaurant, we were initially excited to have such a good local facility. However, it was only a few months before the menu became increasingly more expensive. We are both working full time (and in media-oriented positions - I add this as it's cropped up in these postings!), but found the price hike pretty offputting and haven't gone back in a long time. By comparison, the Rye Hotel in Peckham Rye, has changed it's previous incarnation as an old, run-down pub and now offers a good menu at reasonable prices in a lovely setting. It seems to have kept its local crowd and attracted a new one as well. I think the aim should be for diversity and feel that a new and interesting pub/bar could probably survive on Kirkdale if someone would take that risk.
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GLOBAL THINKER
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 2 Nov 2004 13:20
- Location: SYDENHAM
Nasaroc,
"Parts of Bell Green and Lower Sydenham and areas close to Penge simply aren't going to attract the customers you need to run such an establishment".
As a former East Dulwich resident this argument does not wash with me, I lived in East Dulwich for 5 years and the difference between ED and Peckham is marked and startling and they are no further apart than Kirkdale and Bell Green, but this did not stop new establishments opening and trying their luck in ED.
If your local businessman does not want to open an establishment in Sydenham fine, I don't imagine for one minute he thought about opening one in Bell Green or Lower Sydenham, so why mention it? Not everyone who lives in these areas are knuckle dragging idiots.
Sydenham high street is much narrower and shorter that Lordship Lane which may have an impact on whether a business could survive, but I do believe that should a decent establishment open up, it will be patronised and rightly so.
In the meantime if I have to travel elsewhere for a drink I will continue to do so (there is one advantage of living in Sydenham, the transport links are second to none!)
Forgive me but the comments of your local businessman do smack of social snobbery, but if you want to wrap it with the excuse of him being a hard headed businessman, fine. If I had the means believe me I would open a place in Sydenham without a second thought. First drink would be on me
"Parts of Bell Green and Lower Sydenham and areas close to Penge simply aren't going to attract the customers you need to run such an establishment".
As a former East Dulwich resident this argument does not wash with me, I lived in East Dulwich for 5 years and the difference between ED and Peckham is marked and startling and they are no further apart than Kirkdale and Bell Green, but this did not stop new establishments opening and trying their luck in ED.
If your local businessman does not want to open an establishment in Sydenham fine, I don't imagine for one minute he thought about opening one in Bell Green or Lower Sydenham, so why mention it? Not everyone who lives in these areas are knuckle dragging idiots.
Sydenham high street is much narrower and shorter that Lordship Lane which may have an impact on whether a business could survive, but I do believe that should a decent establishment open up, it will be patronised and rightly so.
In the meantime if I have to travel elsewhere for a drink I will continue to do so (there is one advantage of living in Sydenham, the transport links are second to none!)
Forgive me but the comments of your local businessman do smack of social snobbery, but if you want to wrap it with the excuse of him being a hard headed businessman, fine. If I had the means believe me I would open a place in Sydenham without a second thought. First drink would be on me
hi nasaroc, sorry but ive not been in here for a few days. i also have to admit that, prior to my last posting i had had a few shandies.
i stand by the comment about there being more to life than house prices. the 'value' of a property is immaterial, as most of us are generally paying a mortgage to a bank anyway. if you sell up and move, then the property you move to will have risen in price, or 'value' as well, so there is no gain - unless you decide to live in a tent.
anyhow, all i said was there was 'more' to life than house prices, not that there were 'ten things more' or 'fifty things more'; so thanks for that - you question my point, and then back it up by naming two things more important.
also, sorry, but i cant help seeing the irony if someone who works in the media, complaining about, er, the state of our culture (big brother et al) a culture dominated by pointless media companies, endless self-important journalists, and rubbish, pretend newspapers; each of which, in turn, feeds and thrives on rubbish like 'I'm a Vacuous Product of The Media - Get Me Out of Here'.
glass houses and all that.
anyhow, i digress. i dont want to start another feud within a thread, nor do i want to upset admin, by 'losing the thread'. most of my posts are made with a tongue firmly in cheek. i think we are all headed to hell in a handcart anyway - apart from the lucky ones, who are heading for Heal's, with a handcart.
and finally, back to the greyhound. they really do have an uphill struggle, but i will give it a go, when it is completed. is the 'renovation' just going to be a lick of paint ? i did see they had started doing something, and i prayed that the pink they had started, was just an undercoat. if they are leaving the main building cream, then the wood can only be black - please.
when completed, nasaroc, i am happy to buy you a pint.
as you now know, i too despise a majority of the rubbish which is foisted upon us in the name of entertainment and i am also keen on the sport played by men with odd shaped balls - even if my preference lies within rugby league.
i stand by the comment about there being more to life than house prices. the 'value' of a property is immaterial, as most of us are generally paying a mortgage to a bank anyway. if you sell up and move, then the property you move to will have risen in price, or 'value' as well, so there is no gain - unless you decide to live in a tent.
anyhow, all i said was there was 'more' to life than house prices, not that there were 'ten things more' or 'fifty things more'; so thanks for that - you question my point, and then back it up by naming two things more important.
also, sorry, but i cant help seeing the irony if someone who works in the media, complaining about, er, the state of our culture (big brother et al) a culture dominated by pointless media companies, endless self-important journalists, and rubbish, pretend newspapers; each of which, in turn, feeds and thrives on rubbish like 'I'm a Vacuous Product of The Media - Get Me Out of Here'.
glass houses and all that.
anyhow, i digress. i dont want to start another feud within a thread, nor do i want to upset admin, by 'losing the thread'. most of my posts are made with a tongue firmly in cheek. i think we are all headed to hell in a handcart anyway - apart from the lucky ones, who are heading for Heal's, with a handcart.
and finally, back to the greyhound. they really do have an uphill struggle, but i will give it a go, when it is completed. is the 'renovation' just going to be a lick of paint ? i did see they had started doing something, and i prayed that the pink they had started, was just an undercoat. if they are leaving the main building cream, then the wood can only be black - please.
when completed, nasaroc, i am happy to buy you a pint.
as you now know, i too despise a majority of the rubbish which is foisted upon us in the name of entertainment and i am also keen on the sport played by men with odd shaped balls - even if my preference lies within rugby league.
Myself and Mrs b have popped into The Greyhound a couple of times recently and it has changed noticably.
The atmosphere is much more relaxed and less intimidating, maybe due to the pool table and big-screen TV being removed. Also most of the drinkers in there were couples and it was a much nicer place to sup a pint, although there were not many people in there. Looks like work has begun on the interior, just not sure what it is that's being done.
Good luck to the new team there, it does have potential to be, and should be a great local pub
The atmosphere is much more relaxed and less intimidating, maybe due to the pool table and big-screen TV being removed. Also most of the drinkers in there were couples and it was a much nicer place to sup a pint, although there were not many people in there. Looks like work has begun on the interior, just not sure what it is that's being done.
Good luck to the new team there, it does have potential to be, and should be a great local pub
Middle Class Pubs
Peak Hillbilly
I feel I have to challenge your statements about the Dartmouth Arms. The average menu prices have not actually increased at all since we opened, but they do fluctuate a little between menus and our menus change all the time. In addition you should know that we now run very popular set menu offers.
The quality of our food is way above other restaurants in the local area and so we can never be as cheap as them. But, having just returned half-poisoned from an eaterie down the road, I am reminded that you do get what you pay for.
Although our drinks prices were initially and deliberately set higher than our neighbours to discourage the old clientele we now find they weren't slow to catch up and we are actually cheaper than them on many lines.
You really should give us another try
http://www.thedartmoutharms.com
I feel I have to challenge your statements about the Dartmouth Arms. The average menu prices have not actually increased at all since we opened, but they do fluctuate a little between menus and our menus change all the time. In addition you should know that we now run very popular set menu offers.
The quality of our food is way above other restaurants in the local area and so we can never be as cheap as them. But, having just returned half-poisoned from an eaterie down the road, I am reminded that you do get what you pay for.
Although our drinks prices were initially and deliberately set higher than our neighbours to discourage the old clientele we now find they weren't slow to catch up and we are actually cheaper than them on many lines.
You really should give us another try
http://www.thedartmoutharms.com
I would just like to add that it's great to see the Greyhound finally making moves towards cleaning its act up.
And even though I fear it may be just cosmetic (although truly hope to be proved wrong) lets all urge people to start using it again instead of retreating to to Crystal Palace or Forest Hill.
Maybe if some of the Landlords round here realised how much decent trade they're missing out on (all those familiar faces getting off the train at 6pm - do you ever see them in the pubs?), then even more will be done to regenerate the high street into somewhere people want to stay of an evening.
Attempts may have failed in the past but it seems there's a new enthusiasm about the place this year and I hope it doesn't go to waste.
And even though I fear it may be just cosmetic (although truly hope to be proved wrong) lets all urge people to start using it again instead of retreating to to Crystal Palace or Forest Hill.
Maybe if some of the Landlords round here realised how much decent trade they're missing out on (all those familiar faces getting off the train at 6pm - do you ever see them in the pubs?), then even more will be done to regenerate the high street into somewhere people want to stay of an evening.
Attempts may have failed in the past but it seems there's a new enthusiasm about the place this year and I hope it doesn't go to waste.
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pekingduck
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Dec 2004 11:31
- Location: lawrie park
Hi,
After weeks of saying we must go into the new revamped Greyhound we finally managed it last night - I guess a tuesday night isn't the best night to try it out, but I have to say there was no hostile reception but a very relaxed atmosphere.
The things I would say still need improving are the choice and volume level of music - I'm not a huge R&B fan and didn't want to have to shout at my partner to be heard over it, and the inside decor could do with being updated from an 80's nightclub (unfortunatley synonymous with a chain pub)
Will definitely be back in there, perhaps at the weekend next time.
Credit to the new management - things are definitely moving in the right direction !
After weeks of saying we must go into the new revamped Greyhound we finally managed it last night - I guess a tuesday night isn't the best night to try it out, but I have to say there was no hostile reception but a very relaxed atmosphere.
The things I would say still need improving are the choice and volume level of music - I'm not a huge R&B fan and didn't want to have to shout at my partner to be heard over it, and the inside decor could do with being updated from an 80's nightclub (unfortunatley synonymous with a chain pub)
Will definitely be back in there, perhaps at the weekend next time.
Credit to the new management - things are definitely moving in the right direction !
Well lt should not be quiet this Saturday. The Greyhound is having a Fun Day on behalf of Strongbone's Charitable Trust. Bouncy castles in the car park and stuff. So put your head round the door if you are near.
Cynthia says that she wants to make Sunday a 'quiet' day. Nothing going on, no music - just relax and read the papers or try a game of chess.
Stuart
Cynthia says that she wants to make Sunday a 'quiet' day. Nothing going on, no music - just relax and read the papers or try a game of chess.
Stuart
Good point above - about choice of music in The Greyhound. No wonder it was always full of kids.
And the decour - yep - still very Trave Lodge, but I imagine someone's wallet is still hurting after the paintjob so I'm guessing and hoping that's next on the wish next.
Will definiteley check out the fun day.
And the decour - yep - still very Trave Lodge, but I imagine someone's wallet is still hurting after the paintjob so I'm guessing and hoping that's next on the wish next.
Will definiteley check out the fun day.
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Peak Hillbilly
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 20 May 2005 20:57
- Location: sydenham
My partner and I dropped by the Greyhound last Saturday for a late breakfast - our first visit since moving here in summer 2004. Would really encourage everyone who had concerns about the old management to go in and support this new team. The atmosphere was very relaxed, food was good and there is a no smoking section as well. I'm sure they would appreciate more custom while they are getting established.
This thread is old now by the dates items were posted,
but i would just like to say that a few people i know in sydenham including myself and family like to go to the wetherspoon pub in Penge "the Moon +Stars"I would love to see one in Sydenham with all the alcoves etc and the food is basic but not bad for a night out, what do you think?
This Wetherspoons pub in Penge must be the worst run Wetherspoons outlet.Annie wrote:
This thread is old now by the dates items were posted,
but i would just like to say that a few people i know in sydenham including myself and family like to go to the wetherspoon pub in Penge "the Moon +Stars"I would love to see one in Sydenham with all the alcoves etc and the food is basic but not bad for a night out, what do you think?
Furniture falling to pieces!
ALWAYS running out of lager/cider/beers................
The drinks are usually quite warm (well not as cold as they should be through a cooler), especially the lagers and cider.
They have a Monday club (this is the day when some of the beers/lagers are cheaper) but they are usually not on offer as the manager never or forgot to order enough.
Cleaning the pipes when customers when the pub is open and customers are waitingfor that drink.
No proper air conditioning...........smell your clothes after spending a night in there!
Young children (under 11's) running round the place and even at the bar (sometimes even SITTING on the bar) whilst they are being served.
Full of late teenagers in the evenings, drug taking in the SMELLY dirty toilet. To my knowledge the hand dryers have not worked properly in the mens toilet for over 2 years. They do not always pump out hot air and one of the machines has the starter button hanging off for three years now.
As for the food, yes it is reasonably priced, but the amount that goes back is unbelievable!..............cold; undercooked etc
When Wetherspoons started up it said it would never allow children in the pub, it would never have TVs in their pubs, it would never have music in their pubs............how things have changed.
Since they installed the TVs (about 6 weeks ago) I have and never will go back in there. The TVs are on all day and are very distracting! Yes I could sit somewhere else but where?........it means sitting up in the restuarant area as ALL the stools around the tables are usually all occupied from time of opening to closing. Rightly so these stools and tables are very popular, as it is away from the TVs, so as they are popular what do they decide to do.....................yes you have guessed it........they have removed some.
My comments are up to 6 weeks ago as I now use other establishments including the Goldsmiths.............so I doubt very much whether anything has changed in the Moon and Stars during my last time and final visit there.
Any case apart from the above everything else is ok
going back a bit here but;
sydenham is a working class area,it has been for a long time it was once a 'posh' area,but that was more than a hundred years ago!
yes there are some more expensive properties in sydenham,some v.expensive eg sydenham hill et al,but on the whole it is working class,so if you cant bear to drink in pubs with 'chavs'[your word]then dont!if you want to be ripped off for a pint then trot down to dulwich/greenwich!
a fine example of the arrogance of some who despite being in the minority expect everyone to fall over backwards for them.
do you think the greyhound buses people in from chavland?
NO THEY LIVE LOCALLY!
drinking in pubs is and always has been a working class passtime,so dont be too surprised to find working class people in a pub!
sydenham is a working class area,it has been for a long time it was once a 'posh' area,but that was more than a hundred years ago!
yes there are some more expensive properties in sydenham,some v.expensive eg sydenham hill et al,but on the whole it is working class,so if you cant bear to drink in pubs with 'chavs'[your word]then dont!if you want to be ripped off for a pint then trot down to dulwich/greenwich!
a fine example of the arrogance of some who despite being in the minority expect everyone to fall over backwards for them.
do you think the greyhound buses people in from chavland?
NO THEY LIVE LOCALLY!
drinking in pubs is and always has been a working class passtime,so dont be too surprised to find working class people in a pub!
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Hi Leaf,
You're right, this IS an old topic and apologies in advance for labouring the point but I feel only one side of the argument is being understood. None of the many middle-class snobs in Sydenham (myself included) are denying anyone the right to a proper boozer or a greasy spoon - quite the opposite, and yes, how very noble of us (sorry didn't mean to be glib)
I disagree that Sydenham is predominantly working-class and have socio-demographic information to back this up? Let's agree to disagree that Sydenham has a mix of AB1's through to C2DE ?...as with any part of London (think Notting Hill as an example). My issue is that the lower ranges are rather more catered for, is all. I don't have a problem with that - I've spent more than a few nights in the past in the Greyhound followed by a fry-up to blow the cobwebs off at Sema's (?) which is next to the station and will do so quite happily again in the future. It's just that more often that not I get a pang for somewhere a bit more shallow, transparent and over-priced...it's what I'm used to and I'm not catered for. It does not mean I do not drink in places 'like' the Two Halves I'd just like more of a choice for my poncy tastes - as with many others owho live in Sydenham.
You're right, this IS an old topic and apologies in advance for labouring the point but I feel only one side of the argument is being understood. None of the many middle-class snobs in Sydenham (myself included) are denying anyone the right to a proper boozer or a greasy spoon - quite the opposite, and yes, how very noble of us
(sorry didn't mean to be glib) I disagree that Sydenham is predominantly working-class and have socio-demographic information to back this up? Let's agree to disagree that Sydenham has a mix of AB1's through to C2DE ?...as with any part of London (think Notting Hill as an example). My issue is that the lower ranges are rather more catered for, is all. I don't have a problem with that - I've spent more than a few nights in the past in the Greyhound followed by a fry-up to blow the cobwebs off at Sema's (?) which is next to the station and will do so quite happily again in the future. It's just that more often that not I get a pang for somewhere a bit more shallow, transparent and over-priced...it's what I'm used to and I'm not catered for. It does not mean I do not drink in places 'like' the Two Halves I'd just like more of a choice for my poncy tastes - as with many others owho live in Sydenham.
hello greg
i understand your wish to drink in more civilised surroundings from time to time,i do myself too but im aware that sydenham isnt really the place to do it.
i think we will have to agree to disagree on the socio-economic make up of sydenham,i have lived here over 30 years and known many people from all walks of life who live here,but im under no illusion who is in the majority.
i wonder if its possible that the occasional middle class drinker isnt enough to sustain a middle class pubs business in such an area?
maybe this is why it hasnt proven a viable option?
shouldnt really say this here but there are quite a few nice places to drink up the hill in crystal palace!
leaf
i understand your wish to drink in more civilised surroundings from time to time,i do myself too but im aware that sydenham isnt really the place to do it.
i think we will have to agree to disagree on the socio-economic make up of sydenham,i have lived here over 30 years and known many people from all walks of life who live here,but im under no illusion who is in the majority.
i wonder if its possible that the occasional middle class drinker isnt enough to sustain a middle class pubs business in such an area?
maybe this is why it hasnt proven a viable option?
shouldnt really say this here but there are quite a few nice places to drink up the hill in crystal palace!
leaf
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danstevens
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 6 Oct 2004 09:46
- Location: Sydenham
dan stevens
no i dont think forest hill has a different socio-economic make up!
but it does have alot of residents who have moved there because its cheaper than dulwich and are seeking to make it a 'village' something that was started by estate agents and some are gullible enough to believe it!
good luck to them though as they are obviously more commited to it than the residents of sydenham of a similar ilk!
no i dont think forest hill has a different socio-economic make up!
but it does have alot of residents who have moved there because its cheaper than dulwich and are seeking to make it a 'village' something that was started by estate agents and some are gullible enough to believe it!
good luck to them though as they are obviously more commited to it than the residents of sydenham of a similar ilk!
I am not sure "middle class" is the correct definition.
Surely there is a place for a clean, pleasantly designed, welcoming environment that serves drinks, coffees etc. but insists on a standard of dress and behaviour?
Perhaps some softly playing music in the background rather than the headbanging Concorde competing noise that most of them seem to offer.
Surely there is a place for a clean, pleasantly designed, welcoming environment that serves drinks, coffees etc. but insists on a standard of dress and behaviour?
Perhaps some softly playing music in the background rather than the headbanging Concorde competing noise that most of them seem to offer.
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still_robbo
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 24 Oct 2004 22:13
- Location: Newlands Park